WEBVTT

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Good morning, students,
staff and colleagues.

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I'm Doctor Ethel Gordon from the
Department of Biology.

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It is my pleasure to introduce Doctor
Kevin Esvelt as the inaugural speaker for

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today for this week's Earth Day program.

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Doctor Essfelt would have addressed you
last month during the annual Darwin

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Festival had it not been for inclement
weather.

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Doctor Essfelt received his bachelor
Bachelor in Chemistry and biology from

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Hobby Mudd College in Claremont, CA,
and he received his PhD from Harvard

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University.

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Dr.

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Essfelt is an associate professor of
Media Arts and Sciences at MIT and

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director of the Sculpting Evolution Group.

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He is his lab is working to develop
technologies that allow for local

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alteration of organisms.

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They also are are developing systems that
would allow genetic changes in the wild

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to be overwritten or reversed.

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An outspoken advocate of sharing research
plans to accelerate discovery and improve

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safety.

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Doctor Esfil's lab seeks to promote
beneficial advances while safeguarding

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biotechnology against mistrust and misuse.

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He is here to describe some of his recent
work.

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This talk is entitled Should we?

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Should we engineer ecosystems?

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Please welcome Doctor Kevin S Scott.

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Thank you for the very kind invitation
and introduction and as well for the

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oddly appropriate mouse microphone.

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I love it.

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So I thought I would,
in honour of Earth Week,

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give a talk focused on this question of
what should we do with our new found

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power.

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So the question might be restated as why
engineer living things to begin with?

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Not necessarily out there in the
environment, but just across the board.

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Curiosity.

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Is it wanting to understand the world and
how other creatures experience it,

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understand how they work,
understand how they came to be,

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how we came to be.

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But to draw on Darwin Day,
Darwin's bulldog,

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Thomas Huxley had a different idea.

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So responding in part to the development
of Social Darwinism,

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the movement that says that we should
reconfigure society to be more like

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natural selection in the wild,
Huxley said this is nonsense.

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Let us understand once and for all the
ethical progress of society depends not

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on imitating the cosmic process like
social Darwinism,

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still less in running away from it,
but in combating it.

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That is, he is saying,
evolution happens out there and we don't

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approve,
so we should do something about it.

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And he says,
it may seem an audacious proposal thus to

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pit the microcosm against the macrocosm
and to set man to subdue nature to his

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higher ends.

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But I venture to think that the great
intellectual difference between the

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ancient times with which we have been
occupied and our day lies in the solid

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foundation we have acquired for the hope
that such an enterprise may meet with a

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certain measure of success.

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Now,
it's been 131 years since he wrote that,

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and we were in fact quite far from doing
anything in his day,

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But we do in fact have a solid measure of
foundation for success.

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So what would we use it on if we decided
to?

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I submit Cochleo Maiya Hamanevorax has to
be one of the best named creatures out

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there in South America.

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It's commonly called the bischera or
Gustano Berndodor da granado.

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We call it the New World screwworm.

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I submit that at least by back of the
envelope,

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eradicating this Organism from the wild,
removing every last every last screwworm

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botfly,
would relieve more animal suffering

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integrated over the future than any other
single possible human action.

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Why is that?

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Well, this Organism lays its eggs,
its primary myiasis.

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It lays its eggs in open wounds,
anything as small as a tick bite,

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and the larvae then drill their way in.

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That's why they're called,
they're screw shaped,

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that's why it's called the screw room.

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And they devour the Organism,
the healthy tissue, not just diseased.

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And they culture microbes that emit
volatiles that summon in new gravid

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females to lay more eggs.

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It solely preys upon mammals and birds
which we know can suffer warm blooded

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things and it often ends with the host
being devoured alive by flesh eating

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maggots.

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So Darwin lost his faith over the Icnum
Onidae which just do this to insects.

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This is mammals and birds.

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We're much more confident that they
suffer and by back of the envelope.

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Based on habitat density in South America,
it sure looks like this happens to

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probably something on the order of a
billion mammals and birds every year.

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Typical lifetime of an insect species is
several million years.

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When you do the math this is 10 to the
15th mammals and birds being devoured

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alive by flesh eating maggots.

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For comparison,
factory farming is about 10 to the 11th

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animals per year.

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So if if we were to continue at 100 years
before we stop then that would be 10 to

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the 13th.

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So stopping this is probably more
important than enduring factory farming

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immediately,
unless it is 100 times worse to be a

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broiler hen than it is to be devoured
alive by flesh eating maggots.

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It's also a horrific burden on some of
the poorest people in South America,

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causes tremendous amount of of economic
damage to herders in particular because

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they have to constantly treat their
animals for infestations.

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So I went down to Uruguay and they have
now launched a project to build a gene

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drive system in these organisms.

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So CRISPR based gene drive basically says
let's introduce the CRISPR system and a

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desired change CRISPR introduce this into
the reproductive cells.

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CRISPR cuts and introduces itself into
the genome, but then it's in there,

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it cuts the other chromosome,
copies itself over such that now when

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this mates with a,
with a wild type Organism,

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then in each generation in the
reproductive cells,

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you get CRISPR copying such that it's
always inherited.

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So generation after generation it spreads.

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So the net effect then is me having to
drop out of the presentation and to deal

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with that video.

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So you end up with the whole population
in principle being engineered.

95e9b4c5-d3c1-48e9-8eb9-c9167cdc64a6-0
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If this works well,
this works great in the laboratory,

95e9b4c5-d3c1-48e9-8eb9-c9167cdc64a6-1
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it probably works great in the wild,
but thankfully no one has actually

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released them yet because it will spread
to all populations connected by gene flow.

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So Huxley was pretty optimistic back then.

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Now we really can engineer entire species.

731bd5f6-95d5-40af-a54d-27802c60a487-0
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This probably could get rid of the New
World screwworm because we already

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eradicated it from an entire continent,
North America,

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just by irradiating the larvae enough so
that they became sterile.

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They still developed and then releasing
100 times as many sterile screwworms as

12d15e14-5a48-4c20-a766-c81fa39ccee9-1
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there were wild screwworm flies.

133e79cb-63bc-42f8-b919-48bc661d3993-0
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And we did this to push them out of up
through Florida,

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West down through Texas to the Mexican
border.

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USDA,
then US then made agreements with Central

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American countries and pushed them South.

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And so that now our tax dollars go to
releasing 10 million irradiation

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sterilized screw room flies every week in
a living wall across Panama to prevent

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them from reinvading North America.

bc738b73-720e-4b04-93ff-c4492ad37d29-0
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There's far too many in South America to
get rid of them that way.

295f02bc-4193-40ac-9dd4-a3933f5b90a3-0
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You really don't want to do sterile
insect technique releases over the Amazon,

295f02bc-4193-40ac-9dd4-a3933f5b90a3-1
00:09:01.653 --> 00:09:03.680
but gene drive gene drive could do it.

2480fa95-5cd0-4527-a958-78d1f885cce6-0
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So the problem is,
who gets to decide what should we do and

2480fa95-5cd0-4527-a958-78d1f885cce6-1
00:09:09.507 --> 00:09:09.760
how?

eaf93e96-6f3f-4ac3-81e0-1e7a6d535ee5-0
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:16.971
Probably the most morally important
application is to get rid of malaria and

eaf93e96-6f3f-4ac3-81e0-1e7a6d535ee5-1
00:09:16.971 --> 00:09:18.200
then chestosomiasis.

cb980ea8-4e71-4f76-b8a2-8d97bc1397f6-0
00:09:18.680 --> 00:09:23.403
But that probably shouldn't be the model
of how we decide whether,

cb980ea8-4e71-4f76-b8a2-8d97bc1397f6-1
00:09:23.403 --> 00:09:28.902
when and how to edit species just because
it's really hard to deal with power

cb980ea8-4e71-4f76-b8a2-8d97bc1397f6-2
00:09:28.902 --> 00:09:34.330
dynamics and complications and issues of
education and equity in places like

cb980ea8-4e71-4f76-b8a2-8d97bc1397f6-3
00:09:34.330 --> 00:09:37.080
Africa that suffer from those diseases.

ef9c093c-475b-41d7-875b-03e03254a9e4-0
00:09:37.520 --> 00:09:40.840
So the screwworm is an interesting case
because Uruguay is a high income country.

1e0d59f8-2853-431c-bcfd-db1a7039b8aa-0
00:09:41.520 --> 00:09:45.091
They've been engaging in the community
discussions about whether or not to do

1e0d59f8-2853-431c-bcfd-db1a7039b8aa-1
00:09:45.091 --> 00:09:45.320
this.

f24fea57-2d31-45a2-9b5e-356636dc40f1-0
00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:49.120
And of course they would need to involve
the rest of the Mercosur countries.

b01f221b-821f-4e7c-866f-678314caa235-0
00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:54.345
But we thought, well,
at least I thought since CRISPR based

b01f221b-821f-4e7c-866f-678314caa235-1
00:09:54.345 --> 00:09:58.182
gene drive is my fault,
we needed to a better guide to

b01f221b-821f-4e7c-866f-678314caa235-2
00:09:58.182 --> 00:10:03.763
engineering ecosystems with communities,
with community input to help us decide

b01f221b-821f-4e7c-866f-678314caa235-3
00:10:03.763 --> 00:10:04.880
when to do this.

38d1eae5-b5ea-4a1e-a861-38df3ea8b0ff-0
00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:10.248
So I thought of a few general rules for
engineering complex ecosystems,

38d1eae5-b5ea-4a1e-a861-38df3ea8b0ff-1
00:10:10.248 --> 00:10:14.730
which is number 1 is is to be humble
because our power, I submit,

38d1eae5-b5ea-4a1e-a861-38df3ea8b0ff-2
00:10:14.730 --> 00:10:16.360
comes from reductionism.

2b98aa8d-ef64-4f6f-b9f6-d8215d61bfd3-0
00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:20.834
It's simplifying the system,
understanding the pieces extremely well

2b98aa8d-ef64-4f6f-b9f6-d8215d61bfd3-1
00:10:20.834 --> 00:10:24.522
and how they fit together such that we
can engineer a robust machine,

2b98aa8d-ef64-4f6f-b9f6-d8215d61bfd3-2
00:10:24.522 --> 00:10:28.157
macroscopic or microscopic,
that will function across a wide variety

2b98aa8d-ef64-4f6f-b9f6-d8215d61bfd3-3
00:10:28.157 --> 00:10:28.999
of environments.

3dfb5bdd-812a-491d-a6b7-2b8df742ab80-0
00:10:30.520 --> 00:10:34.358
But to get that power,
we simplified away all of the complexity,

3dfb5bdd-812a-491d-a6b7-2b8df742ab80-1
00:10:34.358 --> 00:10:39.318
which means we're much better at building
things that change systems than we are at

3dfb5bdd-812a-491d-a6b7-2b8df742ab80-2
00:10:39.318 --> 00:10:42.920
understanding complex systems made of
many different pieces.

32b6dca4-b345-4eb2-bc2d-6b700daa0f06-0
00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:49.521
So this demands some amount of humility
in deciding are we ready to tinker with

32b6dca4-b345-4eb2-bc2d-6b700daa0f06-1
00:10:49.521 --> 00:10:50.320
that system.

21efc111-5667-40fc-b288-9df33a513d69-0
00:10:51.400 --> 00:10:55.835
So if you are going to tackle something,
you should try to make the smallest

21efc111-5667-40fc-b288-9df33a513d69-1
00:10:55.835 --> 00:11:00.040
possible change that you think has a good
chance of solving the problem.

5f691378-fd3d-431a-9b5f-3735f446a873-0
00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:04.592
Just because the most minimal change is
the least likely to break something

5f691378-fd3d-431a-9b5f-3735f446a873-1
00:11:04.592 --> 00:11:07.322
important,
you should always test it by starting

5f691378-fd3d-431a-9b5f-3735f446a873-2
00:11:07.322 --> 00:11:09.160
very small and local small scale.

20ccb68b-3ccb-45c7-a637-9be5563b9187-0
00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:10.160
Don't do something large.

b6250ecd-64c0-4c50-ac56-5d696a9f7408-0
00:11:10.160 --> 00:11:14.528
Don't use a self propagating CRISPR gene
drive that is not suitable for field

b6250ecd-64c0-4c50-ac56-5d696a9f7408-1
00:11:14.528 --> 00:11:15.200
trials ever.

6cb2ef1a-d864-4b5c-b79c-88e6d3020f84-0
00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:20.629
And then scale up only if the results
look good in that ecosystem and in fact,

6cb2ef1a-d864-4b5c-b79c-88e6d3020f84-1
00:11:20.629 --> 00:11:22.000
all relevant ecosystems.

4591f4e3-0268-47ed-ba10-9e096bf6022c-0
00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:25.619
And always,
always seek advice from and defer to

4591f4e3-0268-47ed-ba10-9e096bf6022c-1
00:11:25.619 --> 00:11:29.240
others who know more because this is not
nuclear physics.

2544996b-a203-4449-94fd-df8e660627e3-0
00:11:29.560 --> 00:11:32.174
If you're doing,
if you're running a high energy super

2544996b-a203-4449-94fd-df8e660627e3-1
00:11:32.174 --> 00:11:34.455
Collider,
there's probably no need to go to the

2544996b-a203-4449-94fd-df8e660627e3-2
00:11:34.455 --> 00:11:37.640
local community and say, hey,
what do you think's going to happen?

52e5617a-f859-4fc9-a1a0-495f5af46bcb-0
00:11:37.640 --> 00:11:39.600
Can you give us any advice on what we
should do?

254e6cf8-93bd-4b10-b62c-533154711c7c-0
00:11:40.760 --> 00:11:44.181
But if your engineering ecosystem people
live out there and they know a lot and

254e6cf8-93bd-4b10-b62c-533154711c7c-1
00:11:44.181 --> 00:11:46.320
may have noticed things that you haven't
noticed.

c1e24e8b-194d-4445-8d83-17d786bc52e1-0
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:49.560
And what we have found is that this is in
fact true.

2a590668-3f7d-426a-b86e-892ade8f4b20-0
00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:52.320
So where do you start?

e32e0913-0067-42c2-9dfc-d2d7aa813987-0
00:11:52.880 --> 00:11:57.584
Because like it or not,
a lot of people are understandably leery

e32e0913-0067-42c2-9dfc-d2d7aa813987-1
00:11:57.584 --> 00:12:00.480
of our tinkering with the stuff of life.

253c4909-6762-464d-99ec-6b2bc364ecc5-0
00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:04.240
A lot of people really don't like
genetically modified foods.

d81361d2-d8f1-4df7-8017-c06808aadf5e-0
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:07.720
A lot of people mistrust vaccines.

1446a8ab-f192-47f9-a16a-6f2cbc16a9d8-0
00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:11.280
How can we avoid mistakes and backlash?

314deaab-a920-465b-921e-520e3ffa4d8b-0
00:12:11.280 --> 00:12:12.680
How can we build trust?

b1f7709d-5520-4986-a668-be12d65755d3-0
00:12:12.880 --> 00:12:14.560
How can we earn that trust?

6163c1e5-b755-47c3-9a66-250425622d22-0
00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.855
And I think the key is you got to address
a problem obvious to everyone,

6163c1e5-b755-47c3-9a66-250425622d22-1
00:12:20.855 --> 00:12:24.254
because honestly,
tomatoes that go bad in the supermarket a

6163c1e5-b755-47c3-9a66-250425622d22-2
00:12:24.254 --> 00:12:28.730
little faster than you might like is not
exactly a great Clarion call to begin

6163c1e5-b755-47c3-9a66-250425622d22-3
00:12:28.730 --> 00:12:30.600
tinkering with the stuff of life.

e4ca9f87-bd8e-40ec-83c1-7fc264e0e4af-0
00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:38.560
You should openly share your proposals
before your experiments begin.

946d13bc-6a13-4a1e-9dda-530372138d30-0
00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:41.145
Note,
this is not how we normally incentivize

946d13bc-6a13-4a1e-9dda-530372138d30-1
00:12:41.145 --> 00:12:42.200
folks to do science.

63bcd48a-e646-4896-832e-4fff6c19d179-0
00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:45.464
Normally,
if you tell people your brilliant idea,

63bcd48a-e646-4896-832e-4fff6c19d179-1
00:12:45.464 --> 00:12:49.991
then someone else with more money in
hands will get it done first, publish it,

63bcd48a-e646-4896-832e-4fff6c19d179-2
00:12:49.991 --> 00:12:53.200
scoop you and they get all the credit and
you get none.

c980e6f0-4697-43d2-a661-34e5a90bc761-0
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.652
This is arguably fine for biomedical
drugs,

c980e6f0-4697-43d2-a661-34e5a90bc761-1
00:12:56.652 --> 00:13:01.295
because if my grab lab develops a drug
and your doctor recommends it to you,

c980e6f0-4697-43d2-a661-34e5a90bc761-2
00:13:01.295 --> 00:13:02.200
you can say no.

c1fad46b-80ad-406b-a620-188f8acce0f0-0
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:05.080
You can choose not to be affected.

075b3664-a78e-408d-bc52-5bfb6d5bcc11-0
00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.720
You can opt out of being affected by our
research.

c42cb3d4-0a5d-4ab0-aa2c-69ef21240c12-0
00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:12.458
But if we develop an eco technology
intended to change the environment you

c42cb3d4-0a5d-4ab0-aa2c-69ef21240c12-1
00:13:12.458 --> 00:13:15.127
live in,
even if it goes up for a vote in your

c42cb3d4-0a5d-4ab0-aa2c-69ef21240c12-2
00:13:15.127 --> 00:13:17.625
community,
up or down and you get outvoted,

c42cb3d4-0a5d-4ab0-aa2c-69ef21240c12-3
00:13:17.625 --> 00:13:19.840
you're getting affected no matter what.

cd58f083-f299-4247-b18d-ad533e04e950-0
00:13:20.280 --> 00:13:24.818
So if we developed that one in secret,
we denied you a voice in decisions

cd58f083-f299-4247-b18d-ad533e04e950-1
00:13:24.818 --> 00:13:28.560
intended to affect you,
but you won't be able to opt out of.

e4004477-b6ec-4cba-a636-17f39f9a7b63-0
00:13:31.560 --> 00:13:36.452
So you need to actively invite concerns
and community guidance openly before you

e4004477-b6ec-4cba-a636-17f39f9a7b63-1
00:13:36.452 --> 00:13:40.680
do anything and arrange for independent
assessment of how it's going.

57f0830a-088d-4912-a2fc-808fc9c19733-0
00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:43.468
Because, of course,
if you've developed the technology,

57f0830a-088d-4912-a2fc-808fc9c19733-1
00:13:43.468 --> 00:13:46.918
you are the single most biased person in
the world when it comes to deciding

57f0830a-088d-4912-a2fc-808fc9c19733-2
00:13:46.918 --> 00:13:48.800
whether or not it should actually be used.

eb4d6fe9-9dbd-485a-815e-cab18a800d7a-0
00:13:49.800 --> 00:13:52.720
So how to test whether any of this is
right?

9210c0c1-c557-45e4-a851-29457572d15d-0
00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:55.132
This all sounds good in theory,
but a lot of things sound good in theory

9210c0c1-c557-45e4-a851-29457572d15d-1
00:13:55.132 --> 00:13:56.520
and don't actually work in the real world.

cdb56f01-d65d-4813-b96c-d2021a26aba5-0
00:13:57.640 --> 00:13:58.880
How do we test this?

bf60a95e-aaef-4197-9088-afd6c45c0297-0
00:13:59.040 --> 00:14:02.015
And if it works,
how do we actually change those

bf60a95e-aaef-4197-9088-afd6c45c0297-1
00:14:02.015 --> 00:14:05.840
scientific incentives to something that
might be more helpful?

4d731b75-ee52-437e-a5ad-519262325e60-0
00:14:06.160 --> 00:14:10.043
Because I don't think anyone rationally
engineering the scientific ecosystem from

4d731b75-ee52-437e-a5ad-519262325e60-1
00:14:10.043 --> 00:14:13.927
scratch would set up the incentives for
all of us to keep our best ideas a secret

4d731b75-ee52-437e-a5ad-519262325e60-2
00:14:13.927 --> 00:14:15.680
from one another as long as possible.

922711c3-f821-422d-8681-acbaa97d17de-0
00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:25.832
So we decided that living here in New
England, a possibly relevant,

922711c3-f821-422d-8681-acbaa97d17de-1
00:14:25.832 --> 00:14:30.400
sufficiently obvious problem is Lyme
disease.

b12bb105-8801-43fa-bf6e-c4b8e455081f-0
00:14:31.800 --> 00:14:36.031
Now I'm from the Pacific Northwest,
where we don't have horrific blood

b12bb105-8801-43fa-bf6e-c4b8e455081f-1
00:14:36.031 --> 00:14:39.428
sucking monsters lurking in the
underbrush all the time,

b12bb105-8801-43fa-bf6e-c4b8e455081f-2
00:14:39.428 --> 00:14:43.600
ready to latch on and feed on your blood
and give you nasty diseases.

d863e6aa-ae8f-4c72-b64a-6d5e6fc98177-0
00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:47.240
So I found moving here a little
traumatizing in that sense.

d6bf7ef0-da36-4b26-965d-b556142f7f54-0
00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:49.800
Had to be a little bit more cautious when
it comes to hiking about.

9ba5cab7-3025-4f1e-a08e-46b9e54e23cc-0
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:58.024
But it is true that one could accurately
claim that in the North East we have no

9ba5cab7-3025-4f1e-a08e-46b9e54e23cc-1
00:14:58.024 --> 00:15:00.360
traditional natural disasters.

7f164b9e-b858-439e-b105-41504f6bec18-0
00:15:00.680 --> 00:15:03.400
We don't really get serious hurricanes.

3fe6bce5-4355-4d38-a50c-699831279654-0
00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:06.940
We don't have earthquakes or really
serious tornadoes,

3fe6bce5-4355-4d38-a50c-699831279654-1
00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:08.600
at least not near the coast.

938bb978-2353-4017-bb17-ba2f9e4eee50-0
00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:12.440
Our natural disaster is Lyme disease.

ae509eac-72c1-4b45-8993-9d7fff2e93e4-0
00:15:13.040 --> 00:15:18.355
It's the most common in vector borne
infectious disease in the United States

ae509eac-72c1-4b45-8993-9d7fff2e93e4-1
00:15:18.355 --> 00:15:21.600
by a long shot,
and most cases go undiagnosed.

c9b80208-66b6-4ec7-a096-25eebd9dfe3f-0
00:15:22.880 --> 00:15:27.200
It's hardly malaria,
but it ruins lives long term.

5a7197d3-3353-44c0-8745-a2f4a7db307b-0
00:15:28.160 --> 00:15:30.571
So we thought,
is this something that you could

5a7197d3-3353-44c0-8745-a2f4a7db307b-1
00:15:30.571 --> 00:15:32.480
plausibly use in ecotechnology to fix?

9dc98e48-9a16-460f-8bb1-4c1a4182dfbc-0
00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:38.057
So unlike Europe,
which also has a Lyme disease problem,

9dc98e48-9a16-460f-8bb1-4c1a4182dfbc-1
00:15:38.057 --> 00:15:40.720
we have one primary reservoir.

c65400d0-981c-4711-89ea-e864eca36aa4-0
00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:45.005
It's not the only reservoir,
but the white footed mouse Paramiscus

c65400d0-981c-4711-89ea-e864eca36aa4-1
00:15:45.005 --> 00:15:47.120
leukopus is the primary reservoir.

71a33fa9-7980-46f8-8699-5f257cdfbe69-0
00:15:47.160 --> 00:15:51.061
And when it gets bitten by a tick,
tick gets infected when it,

71a33fa9-7980-46f8-8699-5f257cdfbe69-1
00:15:51.061 --> 00:15:54.840
and when an infected tick bites it,
the mouse gets infected.

43011a32-7e58-4982-b952-859f2c6ec7b1-0
00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.240
So mainly you just have this cycle
between the two of them.

7c5f9b4f-34e0-4fe5-b810-ae1beb21e514-0
00:15:58.520 --> 00:16:00.360
And then most other species are secondary.

2767d1a2-f9f9-48d7-b75c-058a3f4b74dc-0
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:06.681
The problem comes when a tick that has
just bitten a mouse and gotten infected,

2767d1a2-f9f9-48d7-b75c-058a3f4b74dc-1
00:16:06.681 --> 00:16:08.920
then bites a person and infects them.

84422afe-fa1d-4832-9b5b-eaebab93967c-0
00:16:10.040 --> 00:16:15.020
And we made this problem worse because we
already engineered the local environment

84422afe-fa1d-4832-9b5b-eaebab93967c-1
00:16:15.020 --> 00:16:17.480
to maximize the number of infected ticks.

8d2e3969-4ced-4c0e-8238-84ac972109d4-0
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.960
Because of course, we love our trees.

0e892f7d-79cd-4bd2-a66c-4920f86582a2-0
00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:21.560
We love living amidst trees.

e0da1c1e-2358-439d-932a-2fc255bd9d57-0
00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:25.180
The Northeast is more forested than it's
probably ever been,

e0da1c1e-2358-439d-932a-2fc255bd9d57-1
00:16:25.180 --> 00:16:27.608
but we've carved it up with roads and
houses,

e0da1c1e-2358-439d-932a-2fc255bd9d57-2
00:16:27.608 --> 00:16:29.720
so we've maximized the forest perimeter.

dd720da6-7e43-435f-b434-255c6c4f9563-0
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:35.951
And as it turns out,
the mice do best at the edges of

dd720da6-7e43-435f-b434-255c6c4f9563-1
00:16:35.951 --> 00:16:36.920
Woodlands.

fb69809e-8f64-46df-b822-2f35074d150b-0
00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.332
Not in the open,
not in the dense Woodlands,

fb69809e-8f64-46df-b822-2f35074d150b-1
00:16:40.332 --> 00:16:41.320
but at the edges.

e4356587-0efa-46a5-95c1-b692b369a216-0
00:16:41.640 --> 00:16:46.160
So we just turn the habitat to maximize
the number of the primary reservoir.

85c8f7a8-029c-41d6-917e-15e7d0707464-0
00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.619
We also got rid of most of the wolves,
which allowed the deer population to

85c8f7a8-029c-41d6-917e-15e7d0707464-1
00:16:50.619 --> 00:16:51.000
explode.

3ff02ee4-6a49-4098-8278-3ac61f4b380d-0
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:53.440
The deer also prefer forest edges.

67b17981-f751-4e16-9f8d-3e56d4bbb293-0
00:16:54.160 --> 00:16:56.120
So we have many, many more deer.

d2a2ad84-ae7a-4344-97b2-58221804fff1-0
00:16:56.520 --> 00:16:59.295
And I know some people,
having been influenced by Bambi,

d2a2ad84-ae7a-4344-97b2-58221804fff1-1
00:16:59.295 --> 00:17:03.141
see deer as these majestic creatures and
they love seeing them in their, well,

d2a2ad84-ae7a-4344-97b2-58221804fff1-2
00:17:03.141 --> 00:17:06.160
maybe not in their gardens, but you know,
in their backyards.

2c88c630-914d-4dc0-82f3-ebf5933b7715-0
00:17:07.600 --> 00:17:11.371
But I can't help but looking at look at a
deer and think that's a million ticks in

2c88c630-914d-4dc0-82f3-ebf5933b7715-1
00:17:11.371 --> 00:17:12.280
the next generation.

902e9312-d554-4212-be0d-4dbe0e24b324-0
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:20.400
So we maximize the number of deer and
therefore maximize the number of ticks.

e2a47b7c-e158-43d6-82f7-ce5bf39bab9c-0
00:17:20.840 --> 00:17:25.058
And then we maximize the number of the
reservoir that transmits Lyme disease

e2a47b7c-e158-43d6-82f7-ce5bf39bab9c-1
00:17:25.058 --> 00:17:27.360
more effectively than any other reservoir.

99790b93-a08b-4796-8db0-cd9be1daa49b-0
00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.848
So we pretty much maximize the number of
infected ticks in the environment

99790b93-a08b-4796-8db0-cd9be1daa49b-1
00:17:31.848 --> 00:17:32.440
inadvertently.

9388179d-0a80-4f8d-a0ae-06265d0f291d-0
00:17:33.040 --> 00:17:36.915
So you can say This is why we have such a
Lyme disease problem today,

9388179d-0a80-4f8d-a0ae-06265d0f291d-1
00:17:36.915 --> 00:17:39.240
whereas we really didn't say 80 years ago.

87e1e61e-6b52-44b0-b56d-23a075f72a0a-0
00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:42.800
How do we fix it?

71a1d616-01fb-416f-a121-d798014e3b22-0
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:46.804
Well,
one possible idea is to engineer the mice

71a1d616-01fb-416f-a121-d798014e3b22-1
00:17:46.804 --> 00:17:52.200
so that they can't be infected,
because then you break the cycle.

9fc395b4-a6c8-4d0d-a669-d02abab88a93-0
00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:58.091
Fewer infected ticks means fewer infected
normal mice or other reservoirs in the

9fc395b4-a6c8-4d0d-a669-d02abab88a93-1
00:17:58.091 --> 00:18:01.167
next generation,
and eventually it spirals down and down

9fc395b4-a6c8-4d0d-a669-d02abab88a93-2
00:18:01.167 --> 00:18:02.840
and down to a much lower level.

65e5fc97-084a-4e47-9059-b75645aed10c-0
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.131
Wouldn't completely prevent Lyme disease,
but it would be much more like it was

65e5fc97-084a-4e47-9059-b75645aed10c-1
00:18:07.131 --> 00:18:10.080
historically by essentially removing the
fuel in this fire.

c6dfadf3-d9fc-4027-b9e3-e676c10dec5a-0
00:18:10.840 --> 00:18:11.720
So how could we do that?

fcd7b10b-9d4f-4df5-b16b-f148a4ac0f4c-0
00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.787
Well,
the idea we had back in 20/15/2016 was

fcd7b10b-9d4f-4df5-b16b-f148a4ac0f4c-1
00:18:15.787 --> 00:18:22.506
look you can obviously vaccinate for Lyme
disease through Aurelia burgdorferi,

fcd7b10b-9d4f-4df5-b16b-f148a4ac0f4c-2
00:18:22.506 --> 00:18:27.440
OSPA works perfectly well or you can just
infect a mouse.

6347d184-b14f-4ada-8de9-120e3b602b92-0
00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:29.000
It will develop immunity.

c2adb424-8a72-483e-8e4d-b25449049ca6-0
00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:32.760
Some of those that immunity is mediated
by antibodies.

094b5e39-46f8-4a6f-9361-d13f894f062c-0
00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:39.003
Why not go in and find the relevant
antibody encoding gene and move it into

094b5e39-46f8-4a6f-9361-d13f894f062c-1
00:18:39.003 --> 00:18:43.906
the germline of the white footed mouse
such that it's born expressing

094b5e39-46f8-4a6f-9361-d13f894f062c-2
00:18:43.906 --> 00:18:49.720
neutralizing antibodies against Borrelia
burgdorferi, the causative agent of Lyme?

9f8538fa-2bb7-407a-8569-d5e1f7a101d0-0
00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:55.920
If all of the mice were born with
protective immunity, that would do it.

7220a2ea-1505-4c8f-8957-561576d27d6d-0
00:18:56.800 --> 00:18:58.720
This seemed the sort of thing that we
could do.

cd2bba40-83f1-48b2-b55c-c9fa5bc5ae6e-0
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:03.720
Folks have engineered various animals to
secrete antibodies in their milk.

40abc942-84e0-45d2-830f-e5ccc0d8af7d-0
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.226
Why wouldn't it work if every cell or
even just the liver cells say we're

40abc942-84e0-45d2-830f-e5ccc0d8af7d-1
00:19:08.226 --> 00:19:10.920
secreting antibodies into the serum all
the time?

5223c51e-2732-4650-99b8-d990bac8818c-0
00:19:12.520 --> 00:19:14.638
But again,
we wanted to go to communities before we

5223c51e-2732-4650-99b8-d990bac8818c-1
00:19:14.638 --> 00:19:16.960
did anything labs,
so we didn't test anything like that.

dddb8a9a-bc8d-4f29-98cb-76e498ca91d3-0
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.455
We actually said, look,
this is probably going to work or

dddb8a9a-bc8d-4f29-98cb-76e498ca91d3-1
00:19:19.455 --> 00:19:20.920
something like this is going to work.

8637b1d1-ed8f-4bce-87af-8e2915867269-0
00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:21.840
We can make this work.

4c3216e1-8b8f-439e-accc-3d923ec22c3e-0
00:19:21.840 --> 00:19:24.600
We don't know exactly how,
but it seems very doable.

f13c18b2-2851-40b9-9036-4061b81cdd40-0
00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:26.440
So let's go to communities and ask.

1edc7e78-2168-4f70-a59a-98e795323c70-0
00:19:27.520 --> 00:19:31.592
So we thought, well, OK,
if you're going to change the environment

1edc7e78-2168-4f70-a59a-98e795323c70-1
00:19:31.592 --> 00:19:35.664
with organisms that can move,
you should pick somewhere where they

1edc7e78-2168-4f70-a59a-98e795323c70-2
00:19:35.664 --> 00:19:36.880
can't move very far.

b7112bc0-8a53-4608-8e57-8fafdcf5d491-0
00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:39.960
So the obvious choice was the islands,
Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard.

449ca765-6802-45d4-a16d-77d396b43df3-0
00:19:40.600 --> 00:19:44.100
So Nantucket is a little bit more
organised than the Vineyard for those of

449ca765-6802-45d4-a16d-77d396b43df3-1
00:19:44.100 --> 00:19:45.360
you who've ever been there.

c5c80d48-4617-4057-aabc-147bab7b2bcd-0
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.840
And so they said yes, come out,
speak at the Board of Health meeting.

8a67a841-91ca-4b7f-8ff7-7321b87b007e-0
00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:52.480
And so I did.

7cd77210-bcea-4a61-82fc-2285928211af-0
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.120
And these are the original slides.

c9775fda-5bd3-4c59-8f05-a23163a6cbf7-0
00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.913
And the point that I said was, look,
we're not doing this because Lyme disease

c9775fda-5bd3-4c59-8f05-a23163a6cbf7-1
00:19:58.913 --> 00:20:00.320
is the worst problem ever.

e3077f78-435b-42d9-8aa7-0249c79e27c8-0
00:20:00.600 --> 00:20:02.360
We can walk away if you don't want this.

4ce8a120-4215-4001-bb8b-2c1c9e828caa-0
00:20:02.360 --> 00:20:07.524
This is primarily about pioneering a new
way of doing community guided technology

4ce8a120-4215-4001-bb8b-2c1c9e828caa-1
00:20:07.524 --> 00:20:08.280
development.

da7f312c-8284-4dc6-be8d-3686ffde62ca-0
00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:16.137
Intended to set this expectations for how
eco technologies are developed in the

da7f312c-8284-4dc6-be8d-3686ffde62ca-1
00:20:16.137 --> 00:20:16.720
future.

373cd1b4-653a-42ff-8524-d9be10f0f984-0
00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:21.346
And the idea here is that extremely
extremely well off,

373cd1b4-653a-42ff-8524-d9be10f0f984-1
00:20:21.346 --> 00:20:26.042
well educated communities with a
tradition of New England town hall

373cd1b4-653a-42ff-8524-d9be10f0f984-2
00:20:26.042 --> 00:20:30.600
democracy are perhaps best positioned to
actually make this work.

0100cf82-744f-46f3-8cad-4baeb6fdc874-0
00:20:31.120 --> 00:20:34.086
In other words,
if you can't get it to work in an English

0100cf82-744f-46f3-8cad-4baeb6fdc874-1
00:20:34.086 --> 00:20:36.438
speaking,
well educated New England town hall

0100cf82-744f-46f3-8cad-4baeb6fdc874-2
00:20:36.438 --> 00:20:38.739
democracy,
you probably can't get it working

0100cf82-744f-46f3-8cad-4baeb6fdc874-3
00:20:38.739 --> 00:20:39.200
anywhere.

b423ef27-31b8-44fe-bf63-7d0e47965624-0
00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:44.471
So we should figure out the basics here
where in the easiest environment and then

b423ef27-31b8-44fe-bf63-7d0e47965624-1
00:20:44.471 --> 00:20:47.240
that can hopefully set expectations
elsewhere.

3e8f4c60-c73d-4693-870b-fe03c9b4329a-0
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.520
So we emphasize that this is only a
concept.

2c109adf-197e-4bd8-8d64-bca33e034425-0
00:20:52.520 --> 00:20:55.360
It will only move forwards if embraced by
the community.

8a72c780-7f82-45cc-bf82-08f793998c8e-0
00:20:55.360 --> 00:20:56.800
It would not be available anytime soon.

c8fcfe1b-41ee-406e-8268-cb101dec357c-0
00:20:56.800 --> 00:20:59.480
Lots of people have the idea that
technology advances like this.

1bf5892d-dd58-4827-bf7c-c7ed955940ad-0
00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:01.953
And while that is arguably true in AI
right now,

1bf5892d-dd58-4827-bf7c-c7ed955940ad-1
00:21:01.953 --> 00:21:03.720
it is not true in many other areas.

9f211006-91af-4a6c-97b2-31e397eaa035-0
00:21:04.560 --> 00:21:06.200
And so we said these are the key
questions.

679fdb43-6397-4f26-aa92-d0bc35b76f53-0
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.840
Do you want us to do this, yes or no?

962e194c-5568-464f-9970-4549eea533c1-0
00:21:08.840 --> 00:21:09.680
Otherwise we walk away.

d76ca8db-b656-4063-bf84-732c3e4f245b-0
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:11.200
We haven't done anything,
We haven't raised any money.

9ab586db-12f7-4dc1-aa86-499953740c4a-0
00:21:12.280 --> 00:21:13.800
What are the criteria for release?

1a3358c5-62b6-4236-a0a6-bfe3ac1bb954-0
00:21:14.560 --> 00:21:16.480
What do you want us to do,
immunize them versus Lyme?

f98f3628-b740-4ae1-8a2e-1f7f67fabd45-0
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:18.771
Should we try to engineer the mice to
kill the ticks,

f98f3628-b740-4ae1-8a2e-1f7f67fabd45-1
00:21:18.771 --> 00:21:21.275
which we think we figured out a way that
we could do that,

f98f3628-b740-4ae1-8a2e-1f7f67fabd45-2
00:21:21.275 --> 00:21:23.439
although we haven't actually done it yet,
or both?

8880a7cf-89c4-4e4a-9dc7-fe3a75ca957c-0
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.360
Where would you want the first field
trials to be held?

2ab96bdc-7015-4be8-89cb-60ca7ba57ccf-0
00:21:26.600 --> 00:21:28.920
Who should do the monitoring assessment
because it can't be us.

3d087108-9e12-4751-a7d4-88d5a3044343-0
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.480
And we went back again and again and
again and again and again.

f4f9fd7b-1e87-4c37-9ad1-413162fd729a-0
00:21:33.520 --> 00:21:36.342
And we tried to get a lot of press to set
an example,

f4f9fd7b-1e87-4c37-9ad1-413162fd729a-1
00:21:36.342 --> 00:21:40.734
which worked very well until the pandemic
made everyone much more concerned about a

f4f9fd7b-1e87-4c37-9ad1-413162fd729a-2
00:21:40.734 --> 00:21:44.080
different kind of exponentially spreading
biological construct.

b4c13dff-e91e-4725-857f-dfc7e1bf04db-0
00:21:47.600 --> 00:21:50.491
So in the meantime,
we decided to figure out, OK,

b4c13dff-e91e-4725-857f-dfc7e1bf04db-1
00:21:50.491 --> 00:21:51.880
can we actually do this?

4c43224e-7e39-4e14-81c2-ef03f4a7cdf8-0
00:21:52.320 --> 00:21:56.560
So we were able to raise some support
both philanthropically and from NIH.

e5b818e1-e287-4d61-8e5a-8577c2b7ac8a-0
00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:01.183
But as expected, with 25,000,
000 years between your standard lab mice

e5b818e1-e287-4d61-8e5a-8577c2b7ac8a-1
00:22:01.183 --> 00:22:04.775
and white footed mice,
they're actually more closely related to

e5b818e1-e287-4d61-8e5a-8577c2b7ac8a-2
00:22:04.775 --> 00:22:05.280
hamsters.

31176ba4-b722-4994-af93-b9e7217002ee-0
00:22:07.840 --> 00:22:12.080
And it turns out that reproductively,
they're nothing like lab mice.

e9ccdc36-ef06-4bcb-a20c-50011fa9bccb-0
00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:15.440
So engineering lab mice is now very
standard, very straightforward.

3522be6d-3b6b-4bf7-bfa8-c315215e4348-0
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.053
Turns out if you encode antibodies in the
germ line,

3522be6d-3b6b-4bf7-bfa8-c315215e4348-1
00:22:19.053 --> 00:22:23.000
at least it looks like the mice end up
resistant or lab mice.

6c797b97-b586-49c7-9a5d-df18d3df744b-0
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:27.766
But white footed mice,
engineering them at all proved to be

6c797b97-b586-49c7-9a5d-df18d3df744b-1
00:22:27.766 --> 00:22:29.280
extremely challenging.

e2b69e48-e5b6-4294-9ae4-9a00c23cac07-0
00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:32.120
So I'm primarily an engineer.

77e99b2b-877e-42e4-88f3-00c8669eb1c2-0
00:22:32.120 --> 00:22:36.187
We do science and engineering,
but my very strong preference is applied

77e99b2b-877e-42e4-88f3-00c8669eb1c2-1
00:22:36.187 --> 00:22:38.560
science to engineering, not basic science.

29b82ce0-a4cc-4210-afe5-9d3a052ae8e3-0
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:44.066
So I'm frankly extremely miffed that we
had to work out the reproductive biology

29b82ce0-a4cc-4210-afe5-9d3a052ae8e3-1
00:22:44.066 --> 00:22:48.320
of white footed mice almost from scratch
in order to engineer them.

2c253e44-ba00-47ee-bedd-c70d0e547218-0
00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:52.881
Fortunately,
I have very talented folks in the group

2c253e44-ba00-47ee-bedd-c70d0e547218-1
00:22:52.881 --> 00:22:57.355
because what we ultimately needed to do
was figure out when in heck these mice

2c253e44-ba00-47ee-bedd-c70d0e547218-2
00:22:57.355 --> 00:23:01.320
and the females are in estrus because no
one knew what the cycle was.

ebb3cb2c-d561-4086-a6d5-7af5800c35be-0
00:23:01.360 --> 00:23:03.480
There is no mating plugs.

2da2c026-2aaf-4fbf-bbf5-25b003469fe4-0
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:04.840
You couldn't tell when they had made it.

c794bc1f-175a-44a4-ba95-2f6063bbe70f-0
00:23:04.840 --> 00:23:06.720
You couldn't tell when they had made it
productively.

0a3208eb-b0d3-474e-b61e-fb9d59884d67-0
00:23:06.800 --> 00:23:11.461
The actual colony expansion rate was
terrible because when you just mix the

0a3208eb-b0d3-474e-b61e-fb9d59884d67-1
00:23:11.461 --> 00:23:14.834
males and females,
they actually the females don't get

0a3208eb-b0d3-474e-b61e-fb9d59884d67-2
00:23:14.834 --> 00:23:16.919
pregnant very often, oddly enough.

49037e66-6bde-4e04-887a-63976f75782a-0
00:23:18.360 --> 00:23:19.680
And it was just a total mess.

c831117a-1257-4660-8c80-554e612efa42-0
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:21.280
You can't, you can't do pseudo pregnancy.

7e16f604-972f-429f-8715-cf0bdde13aa9-0
00:23:21.280 --> 00:23:22.920
You can't do no, you couldn't do anything.

2a8a62e2-a514-4c00-8586-76a5585e75f9-0
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:28.938
And also you can't just give the females
hormones and have them produce a lot of

2a8a62e2-a514-4c00-8586-76a5585e75f9-1
00:23:28.938 --> 00:23:32.259
eggs,
which is our standard practice for lab

2a8a62e2-a514-4c00-8586-76a5585e75f9-2
00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:34.400
mouse engineering Paramiscus.

89cbad31-e69d-49b8-8de6-b937035d785c-0
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:37.720
Oh, they'll produce the eggs,
it's just all the extra ones.

a1079413-43ed-498c-b226-8f43272800f1-0
00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:38.680
They're not viable.

b9491762-541b-4d0b-85b5-5daa5d133b23-0
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.430
So you get a lot of them on paper and
like the number is high,

b9491762-541b-4d0b-85b5-5daa5d133b23-1
00:23:44.430 --> 00:23:46.760
but then when you actually try to
fertilize them and implant them.

b4b80849-4ab5-46db-a508-1573f55d8ca7-0
00:23:48.360 --> 00:23:52.798
So in order to solve this,
we had we figured out eventually that

b4b80849-4ab5-46db-a508-1573f55d8ca7-1
00:23:52.798 --> 00:23:56.144
they're,
the females exhibit a unique pattern of

b4b80849-4ab5-46db-a508-1573f55d8ca7-2
00:23:56.144 --> 00:23:57.920
movement that is temporal.

923f7eac-3f84-4c39-a377-4eca2d765224-0
00:23:58.040 --> 00:24:02.720
So when they're on the day when they're
in estrus, they remain active much longer.

b5d82fb5-a86d-4339-949d-283ddd48e0f3-0
00:24:05.040 --> 00:24:08.280
And this is just the females and only on
the day when they're in estrus.

f50631b5-27d4-48d2-a733-083d780bb771-0
00:24:08.280 --> 00:24:11.160
So we set up these Raspberry Pi based
camera systems.

c7f2aa8a-f0f3-4ab1-8ba1-2c21430d25d7-0
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:17.480
So you can see one here between all of
these cages and we wrote some software.

47588f48-02c1-4764-9d6d-49d5a599ad58-0
00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:21.924
So now we have our mouse app that keeps
track of every mouse in the facility is

47588f48-02c1-4764-9d6d-49d5a599ad58-1
00:24:21.924 --> 00:24:22.480
on camera.

8d834ea1-b89c-4ad6-9695-c5ffaf688914-0
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.720
We saw the females so that we can
actually know what they're up to.

fe598532-2b28-418a-83ba-bee90813b78b-0
00:24:27.280 --> 00:24:30.320
And so here you can see now these are
days from mating.

d290e495-01b2-4d10-afed-42de42a20df3-0
00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:34.311
So these are this is these are cycling
females and you can see every four days,

d290e495-01b2-4d10-afed-42de42a20df3-1
00:24:34.311 --> 00:24:35.160
boom, boom, boom.

92eef136-17d0-4033-a115-51b7965b6b44-0
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.880
This is the hours from lights off
activity pattern.

a6e47af0-4619-4faa-936a-8e17f2fb1db0-0
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:43.098
They extends longer and then up until a
meeting you actually add a male on the

a6e47af0-4619-4faa-936a-8e17f2fb1db0-1
00:24:43.098 --> 00:24:46.600
day of estrus and then they will reliably
reproduce.

7d0da526-71db-47fd-9502-6c1479c7c98e-0
00:24:48.760 --> 00:24:53.173
And then we can do all the Embryology and
see how yes indeed there is very

7d0da526-71db-47fd-9502-6c1479c7c98e-1
00:24:53.173 --> 00:24:56.880
different developmental timelines of the
embryos and the like.

5a1bb247-d0d3-48b5-bbf8-9d2ce573fd35-0
00:24:58.040 --> 00:25:02.444
So when we had to test out, OK,
putting them in which horn of the uterus

5a1bb247-d0d3-48b5-bbf8-9d2ce573fd35-1
00:25:02.444 --> 00:25:05.280
is actually worthwhile and or can you do
both?

d3ae8019-e2a6-4de9-b523-4b046f6e2e69-0
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:08.800
And we did eventually get some engineered
pups.

7538709d-4f2d-4ed2-bdc6-5de02b322240-0
00:25:09.360 --> 00:25:13.200
So now we can in fact engineer the
germline of white footed mice.

871c81e2-a3da-442e-b6b2-73dcb1e1cffd-0
00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:16.920
This is one of those cases where the
planning fallacy always applies.

841c743f-e98c-4183-828e-e3e5be42d3a6-0
00:25:17.760 --> 00:25:23.115
Turns out took us better part of seven
years to figure out how to engineer the

841c743f-e98c-4183-828e-e3e5be42d3a6-1
00:25:23.115 --> 00:25:28.200
mice at all because there was nothing and
they were just not very similar.

bfab86a8-6964-4fc8-990f-e3ecbcbda101-0
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.910
So now the next question is how many
antibodies do we put in because we want

bfab86a8-6964-4fc8-990f-e3ecbcbda101-1
00:25:32.910 --> 00:25:35.360
this to be evolutionarily stable
resistance.

172e6b96-67b7-4000-85fe-96652d8930d0-0
00:25:35.360 --> 00:25:41.760
So one of our collaborators has now
isolated Paramuscus leukopus antibodies

172e6b96-67b7-4000-85fe-96652d8930d0-1
00:25:41.760 --> 00:25:48.412
against Borrelia Osbay that binds to
different epitopes and they all appear to

172e6b96-67b7-4000-85fe-96652d8930d0-2
00:25:48.412 --> 00:25:49.760
be neutralizing.

302b89e9-288c-4b87-b5bd-c021f36a8a00-0
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:56.654
So we want to express ideally at least 4
antibodies so as to ensure that Borrelia

302b89e9-288c-4b87-b5bd-c021f36a8a00-1
00:25:56.654 --> 00:25:58.720
doesn't evolve to escape.

291f6023-44a5-4ca6-9da4-c11e4e28e635-0
00:25:59.320 --> 00:26:03.320
And then the other question is do we want
to add something to localize them?

5a867080-3c12-4ccd-bd85-4691a77f06ff-0
00:26:03.360 --> 00:26:09.513
So the communities were very clear on one
thing, do whatever you can,

5a867080-3c12-4ccd-bd85-4691a77f06ff-1
00:26:09.513 --> 00:26:16.018
but do not add genes from any non mouse
species and not even a non mouse,

5a867080-3c12-4ccd-bd85-4691a77f06ff-2
00:26:16.018 --> 00:26:18.480
any non Paramiscus leukopus.

ddd8c8fc-9ea4-4c1c-aec2-c8c4467e5ba4-0
00:26:18.840 --> 00:26:22.186
That is,
you're allowed to go in and rearrange

ddd8c8fc-9ea4-4c1c-aec2-c8c4467e5ba4-1
00:26:22.186 --> 00:26:28.240
genes as much as you want if it's already
been in there, but don't add anything new.

b752214a-7e40-43f2-983c-faff3d016740-0
00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:35.935
This is an opinion that is held almost
exclusively by people who did not have a

b752214a-7e40-43f2-983c-faff3d016740-1
00:26:35.935 --> 00:26:37.840
formal education in STEM.

2a609d0f-c678-4ee7-8b58-4548b288c16d-0
00:26:39.600 --> 00:26:41.320
The community divides almost perfectly.

caa4c526-2e3e-4ae2-a2da-7f5deb0e3641-0
00:26:41.320 --> 00:26:44.530
People with a STEM background do not care
where the genes came from,

caa4c526-2e3e-4ae2-a2da-7f5deb0e3641-1
00:26:44.530 --> 00:26:45.600
they care what they do.

3f1e7995-121c-49b1-869d-ca7ffe49e051-0
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:48.520
People without a STEM background say no.

f0de7ea3-3986-49d6-8780-8bd95e53d7a5-0
00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:52.796
Just as a general rule of thumb,
don't go mucking with moving genes across

f0de7ea3-3986-49d6-8780-8bd95e53d7a5-1
00:26:52.796 --> 00:26:53.880
species boundaries.

d89b7a13-a8c9-4f0c-8123-0c827ecff2ff-0
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:57.749
We're worried that things might go wrong,
Which is a pretty good heuristic,

d89b7a13-a8c9-4f0c-8123-0c827ecff2ff-1
00:26:57.749 --> 00:26:58.080
actually.

892674a1-8a1f-45e4-a68c-16b6b1329efe-0
00:26:58.080 --> 00:27:02.341
When you think about how much can I get
away with engineering an Organism using

892674a1-8a1f-45e4-a68c-16b6b1329efe-1
00:27:02.341 --> 00:27:04.845
only its genes versus nature's entire
toolbox,

892674a1-8a1f-45e4-a68c-16b6b1329efe-2
00:27:04.845 --> 00:27:09.160
you really are tying my hands behind my
back if you're saying only that species.

95dc01fa-dc36-462c-b6f4-fee759121142-0
00:27:09.560 --> 00:27:10.840
So it's actually pretty good for this.

8accde40-8703-435b-9019-12c4323dc8fd-0
00:27:10.840 --> 00:27:15.198
And since we can solve the problem, fine,
but that does mean we can't use CRISPR

8accde40-8703-435b-9019-12c4323dc8fd-1
00:27:15.198 --> 00:27:16.920
based gene drive, which is fine.

540aa5b4-db18-403a-9a2a-ab21f7f3624f-0
00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:18.240
We didn't want to do that immediately
anyway.

07784049-cdd9-4653-9dd1-31f394bd7755-0
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:19.640
And in fact,
that's the one thing we told the

07784049-cdd9-4653-9dd1-31f394bd7755-1
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:20.920
community is no, we won't do that for you.

df40f0f3-85e1-4362-b589-8fb44121532d-0
00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:23.320
But here is something that we could do.

3791fc0c-5f51-4041-b9c0-624a57f395b1-0
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:27.720
And so this is what's called under
dominance.

df362a82-520c-41ff-816f-18d293d8d58e-0
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:33.606
And the idea here is if you engineer mice
to express these protective antibodies,

df362a82-520c-41ff-816f-18d293d8d58e-1
00:27:33.606 --> 00:27:34.560
they sure don't.

dc45cc28-52c7-40d1-aa21-de3f3c6da522-0
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:40.028
Looks like they only need one copy of the
antibody expressing locus to be resistant,

dc45cc28-52c7-40d1-aa21-de3f3c6da522-1
00:27:40.028 --> 00:27:41.240
as you would expect.

3f278172-f828-44f1-aecc-adc2dffa3fc8-0
00:27:43.040 --> 00:27:47.594
But if you don't want those mice to
spread outside the area of interest,

3f278172-f828-44f1-aecc-adc2dffa3fc8-1
00:27:47.594 --> 00:27:50.838
if you wanted,
say here in if Salem wanted them but

3f278172-f828-44f1-aecc-adc2dffa3fc8-2
00:27:50.838 --> 00:27:54.457
Ipswich didn't or something like that,
or Peabody didn't,

3f278172-f828-44f1-aecc-adc2dffa3fc8-3
00:27:54.457 --> 00:27:57.825
how do you keep the genes where the
people want them,

3f278172-f828-44f1-aecc-adc2dffa3fc8-4
00:27:57.825 --> 00:27:59.760
who want them to actually live?

ddf0957b-d2d7-43f5-bb04-8834e97ef2f4-0
00:27:59.800 --> 00:28:01.360
How do you keep them from crossing the
border?

3bfe750f-9334-4d77-8b99-a6010c4d1361-0
00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:03.720
And the answer is you give the genes the
right to vote.

66e7bbac-7073-4811-be5d-2d5d76fea0bc-0
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:08.759
You set up a majority wins dynamic that
favors whichever genes are in the

66e7bbac-7073-4811-be5d-2d5d76fea0bc-1
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:09.280
majority.

a5f496bb-2609-4aa2-bcb9-699ceebbd960-0
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:15.304
So this is what happens in under
dominance where you have when you have

a5f496bb-2609-4aa2-bcb9-699ceebbd960-1
00:28:15.304 --> 00:28:20.278
something like a reciprocal translocation
between two chromosomes,

a5f496bb-2609-4aa2-bcb9-699ceebbd960-2
00:28:20.278 --> 00:28:25.920
whereby if you need to inherit either 2
translocated copies or two original

a5f496bb-2609-4aa2-bcb9-699ceebbd960-3
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:26.440
copies.

42d3c420-b8c0-491f-829d-8c446d16db6e-0
00:28:26.760 --> 00:28:32.760
Because if you inherit the wrong mixture,
if you're if you're 3 in one of any

42d3c420-b8c0-491f-829d-8c446d16db6e-1
00:28:32.760 --> 00:28:34.760
combination, you're toast.

47fb964c-f062-4727-8303-362eed2d2834-0
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:42.137
And So what this does is it says if you
mate with the other kind,

47fb964c-f062-4727-8303-362eed2d2834-1
00:28:42.137 --> 00:28:47.539
half your grandchildren will die because
that's what happens to the children of

47fb964c-f062-4727-8303-362eed2d2834-2
00:28:47.539 --> 00:28:48.080
hybrids.

62e284a9-b129-4738-801c-970e14062bf9-0
00:28:49.080 --> 00:28:50.680
That's a huge fitness penalty.

5e36806d-6ca3-47a8-9b2c-d8fb4f8dc478-0
00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:54.400
So in effect what you do is you favour
whichever allele is in the majority.

895790a7-cc59-4688-8400-91df02bf8f03-0
00:28:55.640 --> 00:29:00.380
And this would then lead to effective
separation between the mouse populations

895790a7-cc59-4688-8400-91df02bf8f03-1
00:29:00.380 --> 00:29:01.880
in different communities.

9f2f5ac1-84f4-426e-818f-74abc9a256a9-0
00:29:02.280 --> 00:29:04.160
So we're working on doing that too.

8abcd2a0-17af-48a8-9b43-5e8bed8f0424-0
00:29:04.840 --> 00:29:08.600
We have to drop in Cree recombinase and
in order to get the translocation to work.

b6a1bd27-861a-404c-966c-741c70b99278-0
00:29:08.600 --> 00:29:10.200
So both looks like we're going to try.

a14e1740-d88e-41e3-ad45-879f56b9b2f1-0
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:13.665
So in summary,
the communities set up steering

a14e1740-d88e-41e3-ad45-879f56b9b2f1-1
00:29:13.665 --> 00:29:16.040
committees to guide research and
development.

2d5bf16c-20cf-4e63-b7f0-f88f843c83e1-0
00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:19.226
We suggest that they include one
dedicated skeptic,

2d5bf16c-20cf-4e63-b7f0-f88f843c83e1-1
00:29:19.226 --> 00:29:24.252
someone who actually opposes releasing
the mice and is known to do that publicly,

2d5bf16c-20cf-4e63-b7f0-f88f843c83e1-2
00:29:24.252 --> 00:29:29.216
but still supports the project because
they like the way that we are going about

2d5bf16c-20cf-4e63-b7f0-f88f843c83e1-3
00:29:29.216 --> 00:29:29.400
it.

aa29a6b2-63c4-4283-aa13-3cf61c23a66b-0
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:31.880
That is,
a lot of people support the process.

ee7ece9e-540a-4f22-ae9d-1a67485e7259-0
00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:35.360
They really like the idea of community
guided ecotechnology development.

d35a6e40-bcc5-41ac-9f96-2780d78046ad-0
00:29:35.360 --> 00:29:38.289
They recognize they're probably going to
lose that vote,

d35a6e40-bcc5-41ac-9f96-2780d78046ad-1
00:29:38.289 --> 00:29:42.246
but they like the idea of setting the
standard that this is how it's done to

d35a6e40-bcc5-41ac-9f96-2780d78046ad-2
00:29:42.246 --> 00:29:43.839
capture community voices early.

608880d2-b51b-493e-a6bc-132e205466b6-0
00:29:45.040 --> 00:29:48.720
Again, they prefer systgenic mice,
so no genes across species.

4609c723-8a71-4fb3-9c50-581180d68215-0
00:29:48.760 --> 00:29:53.576
And they have actually suggested some
things that might have gone wrong that we

4609c723-8a71-4fb3-9c50-581180d68215-1
00:29:53.576 --> 00:29:58.333
hadn't thought of primarily for the if we
had made mice that actually kill the

4609c723-8a71-4fb3-9c50-581180d68215-2
00:29:58.333 --> 00:30:00.200
ticks and how they're released.

df1b8948-5447-4e76-819f-662870352044-0
00:30:01.600 --> 00:30:04.680
So now we can get started on this.

b10e86ee-54d6-4dc6-ad9d-833e25fd79c5-0
00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:09.076
So these are our our colleagues from
various universities and all of the folks

b10e86ee-54d6-4dc6-ad9d-833e25fd79c5-1
00:30:09.076 --> 00:30:11.080
in my lab who actually did the work.

6fccf271-7c0e-4c16-8044-38c8f8e65398-0
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:15.440
So that was easy mode.

3659566c-1eb8-4801-bfc0-9f36dcce16ac-0
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.720
So far it seems to be going pretty well,
albeit on the technical side.

0c66a40e-a717-4c68-9c4b-b0af17460ae9-0
00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:24.480
But what do you do when the government,
not you,

0c66a40e-a717-4c68-9c4b-b0af17460ae9-1
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:29.600
wants to use the technology that's a
little bit more complicated.

b2a9dcd6-44c0-4819-aa7c-93cdb7bd3e17-0
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:30.760
Can you do anything?

9991cfda-79d6-42ea-9425-5121eaf14d5a-0
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:31.920
I mean, you have a voice.

bd90f513-0567-401b-9efc-db42c4e50713-0
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.080
If you're known to have invented it,
you what?

2a859d77-f00f-4639-a115-21d6670df46e-0
00:30:34.080 --> 00:30:39.247
What do you do when the relevant
communities are more challenging to work

2a859d77-f00f-4639-a115-21d6670df46e-1
00:30:39.247 --> 00:30:44.693
with then New Englanders and when those
communities possess a lot of relevant

2a859d77-f00f-4639-a115-21d6670df46e-2
00:30:44.693 --> 00:30:46.160
ecological knowledge?

f7e6ca26-6682-4ecb-a680-fffa5c6e7c1f-0
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:49.000
How do you understand it?

7c280b6c-56fc-4ae5-ba5f-eaa1770b27ef-0
00:30:49.760 --> 00:30:54.893
So these were all questions that we faced
because the government of New Zealand

7c280b6c-56fc-4ae5-ba5f-eaa1770b27ef-1
00:30:54.893 --> 00:30:59.642
decided that they wanted to get rid of
all invasive mammals by 2050 using

7c280b6c-56fc-4ae5-ba5f-eaa1770b27ef-2
00:30:59.642 --> 00:31:01.760
whatever technology was acquired.

9091cd1f-fc31-4630-a08b-fd05c7c4d8bf-0
00:31:03.560 --> 00:31:05.297
Well,
what what technologies do you think they

9091cd1f-fc31-4630-a08b-fd05c7c4d8bf-1
00:31:05.297 --> 00:31:06.000
started looking at?

b408354d-ae72-4f75-a47f-9198a495ff46-0
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:11.531
So we thought maybe,
perhaps we should go and see what the

b408354d-ae72-4f75-a47f-9198a495ff46-1
00:31:11.531 --> 00:31:15.200
Maori thought about this and whether they
thought it was a good idea.

595b6c00-64d9-43fb-b96d-4066ed21a7d1-0
00:31:15.360 --> 00:31:19.296
Among other things,
the Treaty of Waipengi gives them the

595b6c00-64d9-43fb-b96d-4066ed21a7d1-1
00:31:19.296 --> 00:31:24.386
sovereignty over the natural environment
in AUP Arora, not the government,

595b6c00-64d9-43fb-b96d-4066ed21a7d1-2
00:31:24.386 --> 00:31:29.884
but also they have among the most well
conserved bodies of traditional knowledge

595b6c00-64d9-43fb-b96d-4066ed21a7d1-3
00:31:29.884 --> 00:31:34.160
of their environment of any indigenous
community in the world.

6422e241-24e7-4346-bb14-90118fdf3ff7-0
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:40.970
So we thought we would should find out
before tackling these mice or these mice

6422e241-24e7-4346-bb14-90118fdf3ff7-1
00:31:40.970 --> 00:31:45.120
and rats, particularly the rats,
is what they're most interested in.

272214d5-9104-4bd7-82a1-703daa8d2a9c-0
00:31:47.600 --> 00:31:48.640
Is this a good idea?

4de3ef12-9f74-42b1-847e-d4fa69a3432c-0
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:49.880
How should one go about it?

406e29aa-aaa4-4992-b487-e1d8e4d933c9-0
00:31:51.520 --> 00:31:53.680
Is it OK for scientists to begin doing
this?

9191b13b-ee1e-40b9-a113-d316ea61beae-0
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:55.400
Should the government be pursuing it or
not?

4c343f15-7cc4-40ac-b0a2-7513525e1299-0
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:56.160
And what would they want?

f87d5388-bac6-4ee6-9065-df04850a838c-0
00:31:56.800 --> 00:31:59.821
And we wanted to ensure that there was
Maori and local guidance of these

f87d5388-bac6-4ee6-9065-df04850a838c-1
00:31:59.821 --> 00:32:00.360
technologies.

33cdf42e-aa5d-4916-ac37-de2c26957772-0
00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:05.520
So the caveat slide was that none of this
exists in mammals.

4006d6f8-1439-4169-8be7-7841d2a2d19b-0
00:32:06.080 --> 00:32:07.560
Don't expect this anytime soon.

41792291-2602-4257-987a-00a356502612-0
00:32:08.080 --> 00:32:10.957
And for our part,
we're interested in suppressing rodents

41792291-2602-4257-987a-00a356502612-1
00:32:10.957 --> 00:32:13.240
for other reasons that are pests around
here.

312169b2-4d64-4be5-955d-26e289a25f76-0
00:32:14.040 --> 00:32:17.475
They're also invasive here, actually,
but they've been here for long enough

312169b2-4d64-4be5-955d-26e289a25f76-1
00:32:17.475 --> 00:32:20.640
that I'm not sure what would happen if we
completely got rid of them.

44047cfd-8e9e-40c4-8aba-d24f9a8a2b86-0
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:24.253
That doesn't seem very feasible,
but it sure would be nice to have better

44047cfd-8e9e-40c4-8aba-d24f9a8a2b86-1
00:32:24.253 --> 00:32:27.965
methods of rodent control in urban areas,
ideally just by suppressing their

44047cfd-8e9e-40c4-8aba-d24f9a8a2b86-2
00:32:27.965 --> 00:32:28.599
reproduction.

a467c2af-6d7d-442b-991a-f6c6f1c71b41-0
00:32:28.600 --> 00:32:29.880
It'd be much more humane.

c794b347-c807-463f-9c97-f65373782602-0
00:32:30.560 --> 00:32:34.194
Lot of animal suffering caused by our
using poisons against rodents and glue

c794b347-c807-463f-9c97-f65373782602-1
00:32:34.194 --> 00:32:35.280
traps and other things.

bf53cea6-c130-42be-a61e-4b28dd247894-0
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:37.640
But what about Altaroa?

389b825b-2f12-436c-a886-4a85417cc6cc-0
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:38.680
Should it be used there at all?

bf8ae24d-82ac-44c2-89ba-9daf30860977-0
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:43.945
So we effectively said, look,
we want Maori Co governance over any

bf8ae24d-82ac-44c2-89ba-9daf30860977-1
00:32:43.945 --> 00:32:47.644
proposals to use stuff that's our doing
in Alta Arora,

bf8ae24d-82ac-44c2-89ba-9daf30860977-2
00:32:47.644 --> 00:32:51.680
and we won't support it if Maori aren't
broadly supportive.

a16aa961-d922-4924-aa59-2567ee98c011-0
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:59.537
And we're interested because, well,
we feel that folk who don't share Maori

a16aa961-d922-4924-aa59-2567ee98c011-1
00:32:59.537 --> 00:33:05.996
values and expectations regarding
ecological outcomes should still take

a16aa961-d922-4924-aa59-2567ee98c011-2
00:33:05.996 --> 00:33:11.200
their concerns seriously,
even if it can't be translated.

8429e53e-a3c9-42cf-ac7d-90f00db588a9-0
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:17.350
And this is crucial because we've seen
over the past few decades that there's a

8429e53e-a3c9-42cf-ac7d-90f00db588a9-1
00:33:17.350 --> 00:33:21.626
lot of traditional ecological engineering
arrangements really,

8429e53e-a3c9-42cf-ac7d-90f00db588a9-2
00:33:21.626 --> 00:33:26.785
that we've gone in and said, hey, look,
this crop grows really much better,

8429e53e-a3c9-42cf-ac7d-90f00db588a9-3
00:33:26.785 --> 00:33:27.600
much faster.

bed29215-fb5f-4b67-bd1c-258b85ca2a44-0
00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:29.610
You can get an extra,
whole extra crop cycle in,

bed29215-fb5f-4b67-bd1c-258b85ca2a44-1
00:33:29.610 --> 00:33:30.800
you should start planting it.

af41cecb-d6e6-4e01-94c8-1713e61e0d3b-0
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.114
And it's just completely destroyed this
culturally evolved natural way of

af41cecb-d6e6-4e01-94c8-1713e61e0d3b-1
00:33:36.114 --> 00:33:41.160
managing the local ecosystem because we
didn't understand how it worked.

83cf059f-5dd6-4cf9-8d42-f3c8ccd5d2ab-0
00:33:41.520 --> 00:33:44.400
And it took us decades to figure out how
it worked.

3323609b-0b6c-48d8-a152-91c0e395376a-0
00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:50.714
And there have been some predictions in
Alta Arora that practitioners of the

3323609b-0b6c-48d8-a152-91c0e395376a-1
00:33:50.714 --> 00:33:56.659
Mataranga traditional knowledge made that
took over a decade for a Western PhD

3323609b-0b6c-48d8-a152-91c0e395376a-2
00:33:56.659 --> 00:33:58.240
ecologists to verify.

1121a78b-cbeb-4d52-b42d-d8b4b172b904-0
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:00.080
Yes, indeed, that is in fact how it works.

d2e6dcd9-6501-480e-b49f-bc01a64f11a5-0
00:34:01.120 --> 00:34:03.899
So we know it takes a long time to
translate,

d2e6dcd9-6501-480e-b49f-bc01a64f11a5-1
00:34:03.899 --> 00:34:06.800
and that's just not a feasible thing to
expect.

624bfff2-1d3d-48df-9aa1-4963f71211fc-0
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:08.680
So we just have to take their word for it.

9ad6ad93-d378-4721-8be0-5ced7289543f-0
00:34:11.040 --> 00:34:13.880
But here is where I really screwed up.

6ad29433-fd9a-4dab-93a3-1d1d19413a0c-0
00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:20.730
In the 1st paper describing CRISPR based
gene drive I had to make the pretty Venn

6ad29433-fd9a-4dab-93a3-1d1d19413a0c-1
00:34:20.730 --> 00:34:22.960
diagram showing all the possible
applications.

c7934372-5e10-480a-b518-8cec14a8674d-0
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:27.600
You will note controlling invasive
species and pest management are on there.

58ae0032-bb42-4f20-951d-9394820a60d3-0
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:33.844
Now in the main text I noted that since
this was referred to the self propagating

58ae0032-bb42-4f20-951d-9394820a60d3-1
00:34:33.844 --> 00:34:36.448
form,
that since rats are still always and

58ae0032-bb42-4f20-951d-9394820a60d3-2
00:34:36.448 --> 00:34:41.110
there is gene flow between all the
populations pretty much everywhere in the

58ae0032-bb42-4f20-951d-9394820a60d3-3
00:34:41.110 --> 00:34:43.532
world,
if you use this on invasive rats

58ae0032-bb42-4f20-951d-9394820a60d3-4
00:34:43.532 --> 00:34:46.741
somewhere,
the gene drive will itself prove invasive

58ae0032-bb42-4f20-951d-9394820a60d3-5
00:34:46.741 --> 00:34:48.800
and go back to the native habitat.

34582ba5-7bae-42d9-8639-583a3d1d7be2-0
00:34:50.040 --> 00:34:51.520
So you can only do it if there was.

c3eb6e83-2917-484f-9e5f-6d0148b897f3-0
00:34:51.520 --> 00:34:55.292
If you tried to do it globally,
the whole world decides that you're going

c3eb6e83-2917-484f-9e5f-6d0148b897f3-1
00:34:55.292 --> 00:34:58.760
to get rid of all the invasives and
protect the native populations.

47ddf49f-d609-4762-92d0-36e3953c548d-0
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.440
It's probably hard to coordinate
internationally.

2b92b519-ae66-4b4c-ac7b-f74a589f73da-0
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.280
So all of that is in the main text now.

bd08167a-7e16-4098-9350-c48c2043c6be-0
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.851
How many of you read the main text of all
the papers as opposed to looking at the

bd08167a-7e16-4098-9350-c48c2043c6be-1
00:35:10.851 --> 00:35:11.200
figures?

407f2632-6b74-4f22-b431-2adf9729f24f-0
00:35:13.080 --> 00:35:17.520
So a lot of people got really excited
because if you're a conservationist,

407f2632-6b74-4f22-b431-2adf9729f24f-1
00:35:17.520 --> 00:35:20.480
you don't have a lot to be excited about
of late.

c790550b-be07-42c1-b9e0-47744c977985-0
00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:24.729
It feels like doom and gloom all the time
and so promising new powerful tools that

c790550b-be07-42c1-b9e0-47744c977985-1
00:35:24.729 --> 00:35:28.280
could actually make a difference,
you're really keen on going for it.

19886c9c-e649-4b0a-afda-df773a5df814-0
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:33.184
So a lot of people got really excited
about using in particular self

19886c9c-e649-4b0a-afda-df773a5df814-1
00:35:33.184 --> 00:35:37.440
propagating CRISPR based gene drives
against invasive rodents in al Tearoa,

19886c9c-e649-4b0a-afda-df773a5df814-2
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.960
including folks who advising the
government.

f66f91bc-6c06-4bde-9351-f3ee8c413fde-0
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:46.840
So problem is these things are super
invasive.

5693bbcc-59cc-4b1e-b057-245b81adf172-0
00:35:47.520 --> 00:35:51.843
So we modeled a drive system that only
copies itself half the time and the rest

5693bbcc-59cc-4b1e-b057-245b81adf172-1
00:35:51.843 --> 00:35:55.680
of the time it makes a resistant allele
that can never be copied over.

957cf3fa-0289-44cb-84c7-4abc9d65814e-0
00:35:56.520 --> 00:36:00.179
So it caps out at 37% of the population
ish,

957cf3fa-0289-44cb-84c7-4abc9d65814e-1
00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:03.920
and then the drive just goes down after
that.

dd9eabaa-076b-47a1-9211-13ff9edba5f1-0
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:12.021
But this plots the peak allele frequency
reached of this very terrible gene drive

dd9eabaa-076b-47a1-9211-13ff9edba5f1-1
00:36:12.021 --> 00:36:17.640
against the number of organisms released
and the probability density.

0c9605c7-a5d0-4097-aee7-d8631efefcff-0
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:22.464
So you can see that the probability that
it will not in fact spread goes down very,

0c9605c7-a5d0-4097-aee7-d8631efefcff-1
00:36:22.464 --> 00:36:24.909
very,
very rapidly in the single digit number

0c9605c7-a5d0-4097-aee7-d8631efefcff-2
00:36:24.909 --> 00:36:25.600
of organisms.

c4d21139-e816-4e5a-9cc0-651fee4e18b4-0
00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:34.709
These things are super invasive and if
people will make money from moving

c4d21139-e816-4e5a-9cc0-651fee4e18b4-1
00:36:34.709 --> 00:36:38.440
something, they will move something.

0b6c5bd2-2931-4aa0-8ecb-10d037561f2d-0
00:36:38.680 --> 00:36:40.000
And we know this from Al Tarawa.

5c81854b-c159-4999-b9c8-892313375570-0
00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:46.170
They smuggled in rabbit hemorrhagic fever
virus, rabbit hemorrhagic disease virus,

5c81854b-c159-4999-b9c8-892313375570-1
00:36:46.170 --> 00:36:49.753
excuse me,
from Australia after that test went wrong

5c81854b-c159-4999-b9c8-892313375570-2
00:36:49.753 --> 00:36:55.295
and they spread off of the island that it
was used as a test site to the mainland

5c81854b-c159-4999-b9c8-892313375570-3
00:36:55.295 --> 00:36:59.960
and the government of New Zealand said
that was not a well run test.

89bd149c-c41e-4627-ae73-6d407e0a7dd0-0
00:37:00.640 --> 00:37:03.280
No importing it yet and the farmers
smuggled it in any way.

d3f60120-b1c6-47da-a47d-734932d5268a-0
00:37:05.080 --> 00:37:07.640
Rats cause a lot of economic damage.

f15914ed-9971-4661-a7b8-6301dc4fa63e-0
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:09.600
Someone would move it.

e2d62c95-466f-43fc-a352-184920533eaa-0
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:13.434
So with Neil Gemmell of the University of
Otago,

e2d62c95-466f-43fc-a352-184920533eaa-1
00:37:13.434 --> 00:37:18.520
I wrote a paper saying conservation needs
to use localized forms of gene drive.

e0d66cb5-39e0-4f54-9a40-e1b0ddeb4f53-0
00:37:19.080 --> 00:37:21.040
We outlined a form of a Daisy Dr.

4fdf0186-9848-4aa1-aeeb-98a3dc99751c-0
00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:23.360
that splits up the elements so it can't
spread indefinitely.

1fa71064-b6dd-4007-90e0-ce6f392b06fa-0
00:37:23.680 --> 00:37:27.862
And there are various toxin antitoxin
versions and things like the under

1fa71064-b6dd-4007-90e0-ce6f392b06fa-1
00:37:27.862 --> 00:37:31.987
dominance trick and that you could use
private allele targeting various

1fa71064-b6dd-4007-90e0-ce6f392b06fa-2
00:37:31.987 --> 00:37:32.559
proposals.

80f90fb7-66ed-4a79-9133-51a84d1618fc-0
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:36.400
But the point is you need to not use the
self propagating full power version.

b1e0521c-4197-4cfd-9d05-3b55f8ed482e-0
00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:44.840
But because Neil,
Neil wanted to use Au Taro as an example.

06909002-348d-4f06-9491-a3109a81ec11-0
00:37:45.600 --> 00:37:49.585
And we wrote this and then I reached out
to the Maori and then this came back to

06909002-348d-4f06-9491-a3109a81ec11-1
00:37:49.585 --> 00:37:50.520
the revision stage.

137ef3e8-ae93-4192-b56b-2b14da52884f-0
00:37:50.520 --> 00:37:54.240
And I just didn't think to send it to
them because we'd already written it.

27ff6367-bf6d-42c6-9f04-9031a7471031-0
00:37:54.240 --> 00:37:55.080
It was revision stage.

0afde0d9-808f-482e-ac7d-b9a6fdbcbb9e-0
00:37:55.080 --> 00:37:59.345
We did run it by a pocket here scientist
in Al Tarawa,

0afde0d9-808f-482e-ac7d-b9a6fdbcbb9e-1
00:37:59.345 --> 00:38:05.550
but turns out when you show people in
power that they are wrong and they cannot

0afde0d9-808f-482e-ac7d-b9a6fdbcbb9e-2
00:38:05.550 --> 00:38:11.832
do the thing that they wanted to do and
had invested some political capital into

0afde0d9-808f-482e-ac7d-b9a6fdbcbb9e-3
00:38:11.832 --> 00:38:15.400
doing,
and then you take that away from them.

7af21d6d-4b75-4209-9e50-f463f6aeddb4-0
00:38:15.720 --> 00:38:16.640
They are not happy.

50ef4c11-1ab3-48c3-b12d-7d28b6e3dbbd-0
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.388
And it is hard to strike against me
because I am here on the other side of

50ef4c11-1ab3-48c3-b12d-7d28b6e3dbbd-1
00:38:21.388 --> 00:38:21.840
the world.

2810bc1a-1d04-43a1-afb2-8ac8e342a18e-0
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:24.920
So who do they take it out again?

69ab3318-dd40-4429-87b1-9f49322c6b2c-0
00:38:26.600 --> 00:38:27.640
The folks on the bottom.

e4e5c7e2-6bad-4cc4-9fc6-541c50304f27-0
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:31.816
So as one of my Maori collaborators said,
his meaning,

e4e5c7e2-6bad-4cc4-9fc6-541c50304f27-1
00:38:31.816 --> 00:38:35.656
my naivete of the political situation
Maori are in and publication of this

e4e5c7e2-6bad-4cc4-9fc6-541c50304f27-2
00:38:35.656 --> 00:38:39.138
paper without talking to the other
partner more than likely to have

e4e5c7e2-6bad-4cc4-9fc6-541c50304f27-3
00:38:39.138 --> 00:38:42.159
consequences for a Maori that the author
did not consider.

3d823c6f-0bba-48c5-8cff-2d898207b745-0
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.160
And she is entirely correct.

42926cee-8618-40c4-b0aa-794552cdc89e-0
00:38:48.080 --> 00:38:53.319
I was thinking of engaging with the Maori
as drawing knowledge of their local

42926cee-8618-40c4-b0aa-794552cdc89e-1
00:38:53.319 --> 00:38:56.880
natural ecosystems such that nothing
would go wrong.

7fbb1c72-dce3-4571-805a-14535115623e-0
00:38:57.560 --> 00:39:01.480
I didn't think that there's a local
political ecosystem.

27ddf273-6bc8-493c-a3d6-6a0a0439f659-0
00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:09.160
So I apologized because I really screwed
up.

998f4772-58fd-48d5-8f89-61859ddaf591-0
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:17.458
And they generously invited me back at a
large hooey on the local Tonga species

998f4772-58fd-48d5-8f89-61859ddaf591-1
00:39:17.458 --> 00:39:20.120
and how best to preserve them.

007e34d9-5624-4fc7-86f4-18b126a21c57-0
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:27.346
And I told this story and the most
heartbreaking comment from the audience

007e34d9-5624-4fc7-86f4-18b126a21c57-1
00:39:27.346 --> 00:39:34.159
that I've ever gotten was after I gave
this talk and described the ways that it

007e34d9-5624-4fc7-86f4-18b126a21c57-2
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:37.906
might be done and asked for their
guidance,

007e34d9-5624-4fc7-86f4-18b126a21c57-3
00:39:37.906 --> 00:39:43.015
a woman and explained that I thought I'd
learned from this,

007e34d9-5624-4fc7-86f4-18b126a21c57-4
00:39:43.015 --> 00:39:45.400
but I'd already failed them.

d4a2c25f-b119-4fce-9408-141e30018f6f-0
00:39:46.520 --> 00:39:48.780
And so I would completely understand if
they said no,

d4a2c25f-b119-4fce-9408-141e30018f6f-1
00:39:48.780 --> 00:39:51.040
we don't want anything like anything to
do with this.

13a12ed3-0ac8-4d4c-a6d9-556e258619b9-0
00:39:51.600 --> 00:39:58.653
A woman of probably 60 something rose to
her feet and she said,

13a12ed3-0ac8-4d4c-a6d9-556e258619b9-1
00:39:58.653 --> 00:40:06.920
I have never heard a Pakaya scientist
apologize to us for anything before.

6a0acb87-31f4-4b78-b2d9-e9d8ca637173-0
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:16.652
So they did decide that they were still
interested in working with us because I

6a0acb87-31f4-4b78-b2d9-e9d8ca637173-1
00:40:16.652 --> 00:40:19.200
mean, that's a very low bar to clear, but.

df831d6a-f00e-4848-b064-8dbe7a43c411-0
00:40:21.200 --> 00:40:25.976
So we engaged in further discussions and
went back numerous times pre pandemic,

df831d6a-f00e-4848-b064-8dbe7a43c411-1
00:40:25.976 --> 00:40:30.693
brought the lead Maori coordinator at the
New Zealand Environmental Protection

df831d6a-f00e-4848-b064-8dbe7a43c411-2
00:40:30.693 --> 00:40:33.261
Agency,
who's in charge of integrating the

df831d6a-f00e-4848-b064-8dbe7a43c411-3
00:40:33.261 --> 00:40:37.082
mataranga into assessments,
came out to MIT on a fellowship and

df831d6a-f00e-4848-b064-8dbe7a43c411-4
00:40:37.082 --> 00:40:37.679
joined us.

0f097ef1-c9b2-48ee-a21d-742daae5e026-0
00:40:38.560 --> 00:40:40.960
That's him right there, Doug.

66625fcb-4310-4559-9407-141afc3bd306-0
00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:45.520
And we continued this until the pandemic
prevented us from going back.

52a66db3-f6c3-4431-b0a1-0102aa65345a-0
00:40:45.560 --> 00:40:50.640
It's really hard to maintain
relationships by a Zoom during a pandemic,

52a66db3-f6c3-4431-b0a1-0102aa65345a-1
00:40:50.640 --> 00:40:55.437
so we're hoping to raise the funds to to
go back and continue this,

52a66db3-f6c3-4431-b0a1-0102aa65345a-2
00:40:55.437 --> 00:41:00.800
particularly in the event that our Y
linked suppression research continues.

25fb45c7-f0d2-4a87-bbde-284132e875ef-0
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:07.329
But the point of this story is that when
we gain the power to act and we use it,

25fb45c7-f0d2-4a87-bbde-284132e875ef-1
00:41:07.329 --> 00:41:10.360
then we become responsible for the
consequences.

554888c9-3c38-487a-bb55-76aa589cfc31-0
00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:13.880
Anything that goes wrong is on us,
anything unexpected.

2f5a565a-4756-4f09-b4b0-92d32ef51ae3-0
00:41:14.600 --> 00:41:17.901
But if we gain the power to act,
and we don't use it,

2f5a565a-4756-4f09-b4b0-92d32ef51ae3-1
00:41:17.901 --> 00:41:21.815
we choose to do nothing,
then we become morally responsible for

2f5a565a-4756-4f09-b4b0-92d32ef51ae3-2
00:41:21.815 --> 00:41:24.200
the continued existence of the problem.

c95c755a-81e4-4f89-be3d-f8d709aa057e-0
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:29.760
It's on you either way,
as soon as you gain the power.

da691666-9893-4f84-a52e-ccf358a6dd84-0
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:37.389
So now we increasingly have the power to
intervene in natural ecosystems in

da691666-9893-4f84-a52e-ccf358a6dd84-1
00:41:37.389 --> 00:41:40.240
targeted and programmable ways.

ee3d4584-0b7f-485a-855f-4171a796e4c9-0
00:41:41.200 --> 00:41:43.720
And it's on us no matter what we choose
to do.

6bdfd9b0-6ec7-42fb-931f-1c916113b8f0-0
00:41:45.520 --> 00:41:45.880
Thank you.

d6bc1e85-6c69-48b8-ad0f-ab4d724bcd97-0
00:41:53.160 --> 00:41:56.640
Given the intimate setting of this room,
we haven't got a microphone.

c9117332-6d9f-460f-9cc1-de7d74cf623f-0
00:41:56.640 --> 00:42:04.840
But this is a comment.

6a0bf854-a4c1-417f-b6f8-997d4dabd760-0
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:10.760
This is the most responsible talk I've
ever heard about gene engineering.

6a1d641d-cec3-4055-90f1-a8761d2a1d56-0
00:42:12.080 --> 00:42:16.680
And I appreciate what you're willing to
to stand up and say.

611f7cd5-1854-4107-a5c0-c1e47388bc93-0
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:22.823
And we as scientists need to listen very,
very carefully to what you're saying

611f7cd5-1854-4107-a5c0-c1e47388bc93-1
00:42:22.823 --> 00:42:25.240
because there are all kinds of issues.

ff7e5207-3c1a-4936-a76e-adb54e50182b-0
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:28.880
You just scratch the surface there.

3dd30843-5b21-49a8-b498-70c64f7dbbf2-0
00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:30.320
But thank you.

040c838f-d191-4052-97dd-1c0607851e36-0
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:32.880
Thank you.

544f6a62-5c2e-43f7-bdf4-01eb29039072-0
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:35.767
There is definitely no easy answers to
this one,

544f6a62-5c2e-43f7-bdf4-01eb29039072-1
00:42:35.767 --> 00:42:38.000
although this isn't what keeps me up at
night.

ad18ccd7-c80c-4933-b05d-a5909e0a0349-0
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:44.160
Biology gets more harmful than this.

78e8122f-b242-41d0-a899-11083d940101-0
00:42:47.080 --> 00:42:50.800
What does keep going you really want to
know?

2aae2e9e-13d1-41ed-bd0a-c0e341d4f674-0
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:56.623
A lot of our colleagues are very
interested in learning more about

2aae2e9e-13d1-41ed-bd0a-c0e341d4f674-1
00:42:56.623 --> 00:43:00.680
pandemic viruses under the assumption
that we can better prepare for them.

50da2bbe-a5ac-4011-bcbe-9e588f2a3473-0
00:43:01.040 --> 00:43:03.709
So logically,
you want to know how is something like

50da2bbe-a5ac-4011-bcbe-9e588f2a3473-1
00:43:03.709 --> 00:43:06.882
COVID, once it jumps,
going to evolve so that you can engineer

50da2bbe-a5ac-4011-bcbe-9e588f2a3473-2
00:43:06.882 --> 00:43:09.199
vaccines that will cover the future
variants?

48d53d77-b214-4a74-a8f0-a55aacb428b6-0
00:43:10.600 --> 00:43:16.120
But as Richard Feynman said,
what I cannot create, I do not understand.

541bbe84-876e-47d3-b743-7496d9056f49-0
00:43:17.200 --> 00:43:19.920
Eventually,
we will understand how pandemics work.

89ab1db9-ab4c-4ef6-a9ab-2fcd8799a0ac-0
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:24.672
We will be able to predict antigenic
evolution and cell entry of key receptors

89ab1db9-ab4c-4ef6-a9ab-2fcd8799a0ac-1
00:43:24.672 --> 00:43:27.800
for probably all the different families
of viruses.

f13de0e3-5c1d-45a1-ae25-0a890c495dc5-0
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:32.285
There's a lot of machine learning work on
attempting to model these,

f13de0e3-5c1d-45a1-ae25-0a890c495dc5-1
00:43:32.285 --> 00:43:35.600
and we will learn how to make arbitrary
pandemics.

929803f9-d9b8-4606-8831-55dc313514dc-0
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:40.663
And right now we cannot defend against
pandemics pretty much at all in any kind

929803f9-d9b8-4606-8831-55dc313514dc-1
00:43:40.663 --> 00:43:44.160
of effective way because of the logistics
of vaccine production.

218dac3a-da26-4242-8b24-8c9ddbb76d9a-0
00:43:44.520 --> 00:43:47.847
In other words,
many of our colleagues very well meaning

218dac3a-da26-4242-8b24-8c9ddbb76d9a-1
00:43:47.847 --> 00:43:52.225
trying to help are putting out their
public tools for engineering pandemic

218dac3a-da26-4242-8b24-8c9ddbb76d9a-2
00:43:52.225 --> 00:43:53.160
capable viruses.

d4b4e4f9-9a6b-4022-b3d6-8431c56b6805-0
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:04.400
That's but it's totally solvable.

59ec115d-ba7b-4dab-8ac1-e6aa22573d1d-0
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:08.320
It's just it's not solvable using our
tools.

d8cc72c1-f040-4408-a7f6-d5089d89c88a-0
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:14.071
It's probably not solvable within
biotechnology just because you can't get

d8cc72c1-f040-4408-a7f6-d5089d89c88a-1
00:44:14.071 --> 00:44:18.596
the cure to everyone,
you can't vaccinate everyone against

d8cc72c1-f040-4408-a7f6-d5089d89c88a-2
00:44:18.596 --> 00:44:19.440
everything.

b0afbafc-fc7f-489f-8b99-8f027bac66d7-0
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:23.640
There are so many possible configurations
of entry proteins, for example.

0488f485-ea4c-4d1c-b629-5cf2a3c6667c-0
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:25.240
You can't vaccinate against all of them.

83a23c6b-7991-4fee-9b9b-d9d9c01b7a17-0
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:30.680
Even broad spectrum isn't broad enough
against that kind of design capability.

d3ae1f51-737f-4cef-afa5-f434a9f6281a-0
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:35.299
And if you wait until The thing is
spreading,

d3ae1f51-737f-4cef-afa5-f434a9f6281a-1
00:44:35.299 --> 00:44:42.046
Omicron infected half of Europe and a
quarter of Americans within 100 days of

d3ae1f51-737f-4cef-afa5-f434a9f6281a-2
00:44:42.046 --> 00:44:45.160
being discovered in southern Africa.

d2263b63-9131-4ca8-9c86-c0a10d9eaee3-0
00:44:46.240 --> 00:44:50.920
Something spreading through airports,
something deliberately released across

d2263b63-9131-4ca8-9c86-c0a10d9eaee3-1
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:53.960
multiple airports would spread much more
quickly.

05feaed8-5263-4816-b4c3-3e0f8e6f8cd5-0
00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:57.621
And the National Bio Defense Strategy
says have enough,

05feaed8-5263-4816-b4c3-3e0f8e6f8cd5-1
00:44:57.621 --> 00:45:02.102
have a vaccine approved in 100 days and
have enough doses available for all

05feaed8-5263-4816-b4c3-3e0f8e6f8cd5-2
00:45:02.102 --> 00:45:03.400
Americans in 130 days.

d8448bc8-cef1-446a-b1ba-823e9f8e6d7f-0
00:45:04.040 --> 00:45:05.960
It's just way too slow.

cf5c249d-0f67-4094-af2b-47b7d87ecd71-0
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:10.400
So biotechnology appears to favour
offense.

806c6426-5d69-4e1a-bd38-65dd8d066deb-0
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:12.920
It's just straight up offense dominant.

bb770904-3c49-4e6c-a5ac-82d7e6fa2115-0
00:45:13.200 --> 00:45:16.542
That doesn't mean that technology is
offense dominant because we know

bb770904-3c49-4e6c-a5ac-82d7e6fa2115-1
00:45:16.542 --> 00:45:20.219
perfectly well how to build protective
equipment that will perfectly keep us

bb770904-3c49-4e6c-a5ac-82d7e6fa2115-2
00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:22.320
from getting protect from getting
infected.

9d865dd7-f6b2-4ab1-8737-7fb1a016d715-0
00:45:22.640 --> 00:45:26.677
The power purifying respirator,
you're not going to get infected with

9d865dd7-f6b2-4ab1-8737-7fb1a016d715-1
00:45:26.677 --> 00:45:28.120
anything while that's on.

b7638bae-a7c0-4599-b4bf-c9796889c3be-0
00:45:28.520 --> 00:45:34.195
You know, you can't scratch your nose,
but it's also not going to break the seal

b7638bae-a7c0-4599-b4bf-c9796889c3be-1
00:45:34.195 --> 00:45:39.800
when if you reach under it to scratch
your neck because it's positive pressure.

6a23e7ea-ee56-40f9-8326-d5205fa89fb5-0
00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:41.280
And those cost $1000 each.

50ac5286-a050-4624-bbcf-ebf41a456970-0
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:44.080
And if we had one of those for every
essential worker,

50ac5286-a050-4624-bbcf-ebf41a456970-1
00:45:44.080 --> 00:45:47.440
then we could lock down and withstand and
eliminate any pandemic.

b83f868c-c263-406d-b6e2-afe60d40191f-0
00:45:48.040 --> 00:45:51.050
Question is,
will we invest in doing that before we

b83f868c-c263-406d-b6e2-afe60d40191f-1
00:45:51.050 --> 00:45:52.440
learn to make pandemics?

f2b44ab7-d864-439e-b466-3a5e4d1f8882-0
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.818
So that's the other thing that I worry
about these days,

f2b44ab7-d864-439e-b466-3a5e4d1f8882-1
00:45:55.818 --> 00:45:59.785
is that we're not thinking about the
downstream consequences of just learning

f2b44ab7-d864-439e-b466-3a5e4d1f8882-2
00:45:59.785 --> 00:46:00.039
more.

1dac2c3e-872e-49e2-9d6b-3acac1fff83c-0
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:04.176
Because it's nice to believe that all
knowledge is worth having,

1dac2c3e-872e-49e2-9d6b-3acac1fff83c-1
00:46:04.176 --> 00:46:06.760
but some knowledge is not worth having
yet.

16af07c1-5573-4b85-93ef-423c4082bdab-0
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:09.720
Not until you invest in the defenses
first.

9a562090-788d-4ac4-ab6a-a7880f808c42-0
00:46:10.520 --> 00:46:15.374
Yeah,
There was a conference in the Sylmar when

9a562090-788d-4ac4-ab6a-a7880f808c42-1
00:46:15.374 --> 00:46:22.960
the combat DNA started coming along and
that actually was useful, I think.

3b3d81f2-6641-491f-8e32-b1deaac59a31-0
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:25.000
I mean that my perception is that it was
useful.

10bb28ca-4570-4624-b0a1-6b6177abdf01-0
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:38.942
Do you think that we could have a similar
kind of moratorium occur bluntly right

10bb28ca-4570-4624-b0a1-6b6177abdf01-1
00:46:38.942 --> 00:46:39.560
now?

54822705-9a63-40fe-aae4-e5f1556c982c-0
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:44.047
No,
we did have a moratorium on enhancing

54822705-9a63-40fe-aae4-e5f1556c982c-1
00:46:44.047 --> 00:46:51.054
transmissibility and virulence of
pandemic capable pathogens during the

54822705-9a63-40fe-aae4-e5f1556c982c-2
00:46:51.054 --> 00:46:55.920
Obama administration,
and then it was overturned.

d300e427-37e5-4d22-b520-231b21f9b262-0
00:46:56.440 --> 00:47:01.461
But too many of our colleagues think it's
a good idea to learn which mutations

d300e427-37e5-4d22-b520-231b21f9b262-1
00:47:01.461 --> 00:47:06.038
might occur that would make things
pandemic capable so that we can then

d300e427-37e5-4d22-b520-231b21f9b262-2
00:47:06.038 --> 00:47:10.170
better try to prevent spillover,
early detection, all that jazz,

d300e427-37e5-4d22-b520-231b21f9b262-3
00:47:10.170 --> 00:47:12.839
which is a very reasonable thing to think.

d5c8928f-383e-423e-a277-5e22695adea7-0
00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:15.120
It's just,
it assumes there's nothing deliberate.

0296c3e2-05ed-4680-ada9-97b07bd932fe-0
00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:21.000
You've shown that that that thinking is
not necessarily, but it's very intuitive.

26158654-51d6-4275-b8bc-e1afa3ba5fe3-0
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:23.748
You want to know Morse,
because then knowing knowing about it

26158654-51d6-4275-b8bc-e1afa3ba5fe3-1
00:47:23.748 --> 00:47:24.680
makes you feel safer.

5a457034-1448-44ba-92ec-c06ca30b3fb5-0
00:47:24.680 --> 00:47:26.920
And then you do have more options for
responding.

b8ea3ed6-5e95-4858-86d6-d1443c9d7149-0
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:32.434
It's just we spend so much of our time
thinking about how to fight disease that

b8ea3ed6-5e95-4858-86d6-d1443c9d7149-1
00:47:32.434 --> 00:47:36.880
it's hard to conceive that someone might
want to use it as a weapon.

2ea01630-63bc-4006-b7c2-a9ec8b398ec5-0
00:47:37.720 --> 00:47:39.120
But it only takes one person.

6e05cd69-b52f-4c95-8c1d-07f145075e74-0
00:47:44.520 --> 00:47:50.760
Sales date brands itself as Massachusetts
Civil Engagement University.

a9592a14-e7ae-4674-aca0-9dfac16a1c4d-0
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:58.530
I think that's the respect and we have an
office here for an office of civic

a9592a14-e7ae-4674-aca0-9dfac16a1c4d-1
00:47:58.530 --> 00:47:59.640
engagement.

22deb178-05a0-4850-a52e-98ea6469d9e8-0
00:48:00.600 --> 00:48:06.760
I have done work in Southeast Asia,
tropical rainforest and Puerto Rican dry

22deb178-05a0-4850-a52e-98ea6469d9e8-1
00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:12.600
forest and locally and I didn't have
support for the 1st 2:00 but I have

22deb178-05a0-4850-a52e-98ea6469d9e8-2
00:48:12.600 --> 00:48:15.160
support now through that office.

0d66796d-0412-4099-b986-111786a515da-0
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:16.280
Do you?

dec5c434-c025-42c4-9a12-aeabfc9617ea-0
00:48:16.720 --> 00:48:18.400
And it's made a real difference.

7badef4d-0fd0-4c5e-a1ff-dbdded4da06a-0
00:48:19.040 --> 00:48:25.706
I've had a community based participatory
research project that follows certain

7badef4d-0fd0-4c5e-a1ff-dbdded4da06a-1
00:48:25.706 --> 00:48:31.360
certain structure and I find it to be a
structure that is working.

5556fdec-4b0e-48bc-86ce-386656baf743-0
00:48:31.640 --> 00:48:32.080
It doesn't.

0449016e-7cfd-4bfe-9508-8b37f6e02637-0
00:48:32.160 --> 00:48:38.972
It's not always smooth,
but I feel like we've accomplished a lot

0449016e-7cfd-4bfe-9508-8b37f6e02637-1
00:48:38.972 --> 00:48:40.440
in four years.

865a5270-0231-4c52-9c06-fcc25a66497a-0
00:48:41.680 --> 00:48:46.317
Do you have that type of support at MIT,
People you can go to to say this is the

865a5270-0231-4c52-9c06-fcc25a66497a-1
00:48:46.317 --> 00:48:47.920
next step I'm going to take.

feb16ac1-9421-4dc9-97a2-84726ed1ffb7-0
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:53.218
Can you give me some feedback about the
the right path forward like or I'm

feb16ac1-9421-4dc9-97a2-84726ed1ffb7-1
00:48:53.218 --> 00:48:56.680
running into an issue because this is
what I do.

c7f3a699-8d39-41ba-ac58-72a379f65343-0
00:48:56.720 --> 00:48:59.312
Like if I get to a new stage of the
project, I reach out to them and I say,

c7f3a699-8d39-41ba-ac58-72a379f65343-1
00:48:59.312 --> 00:48:59.960
this is where I am.

c232a041-b1e8-4d05-ac69-d8d6a7a092ea-0
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.360
What are the pitfalls?

5f0053ec-9e4d-4439-8809-93a8821e7cc7-0
00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:04.480
What do I need to watch out for?

982bae53-5fab-4efa-a35d-b2acceff5118-0
00:49:06.040 --> 00:49:08.360
I'm just wondering if you have something
similar to you.

a299e099-68fa-4500-b408-f5bc54637882-0
00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:10.840
Actually, we really don't.

48936efc-4a49-4a7a-b93d-376a5aef64db-0
00:49:11.240 --> 00:49:16.471
So we have,
we have the lawyers that tell us what we

48936efc-4a49-4a7a-b93d-376a5aef64db-1
00:49:16.471 --> 00:49:17.360
can't do.

c7898969-2538-439d-bce9-4739ab39db50-0
00:49:21.640 --> 00:49:26.184
Lawyers can be useful and we have and we
have the committee that tells us what we

c7898969-2538-439d-bce9-4739ab39db50-1
00:49:26.184 --> 00:49:30.507
need to be careful of when it comes to
national security and engagements with

c7898969-2538-439d-bce9-4739ab39db50-2
00:49:30.507 --> 00:49:31.560
China and so forth.

c8ccebf3-5a94-46bf-ad32-b5f8c56b2a0e-0
00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:34.040
We don't really have that.

673ec533-9644-45fa-a3b0-aefde7c5ac40-0
00:49:34.040 --> 00:49:36.000
I mean,
we have the Office of the Vice President

673ec533-9644-45fa-a3b0-aefde7c5ac40-1
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.800
for Research handles weird things like
that.

89dbceea-c608-4341-9c10-f207aed2ebbb-0
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:42.452
So whenever we we just develop some phage
mid tracers to put into the sewerage

89dbceea-c608-4341-9c10-f207aed2ebbb-1
00:49:42.452 --> 00:49:46.398
system at different points,
just flush them down different toilets

89dbceea-c608-4341-9c10-f207aed2ebbb-2
00:49:46.398 --> 00:49:50.816
with different barcodes to then figure
out how long does it take different

89dbceea-c608-4341-9c10-f207aed2ebbb-3
00:49:50.816 --> 00:49:54.880
pathogens flush down a toilet to get to
Deer Island treatment plant.

cf7457ad-ce46-44df-b1a4-54d243d4c844-0
00:49:55.200 --> 00:49:59.365
So just figure out how good is wastewater
monitoring for pathogen detection in a

cf7457ad-ce46-44df-b1a4-54d243d4c844-1
00:49:59.365 --> 00:50:00.240
city environment.

7958d1d8-5ce8-4cb6-a160-b77d3b39894f-0
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:04.997
But because that would involve putting
something into the environment that is

7958d1d8-5ce8-4cb6-a160-b77d3b39894f-1
00:50:04.997 --> 00:50:08.880
engineered, then this is, you know,
sort of trips the warning flags and is

7958d1d8-5ce8-4cb6-a160-b77d3b39894f-2
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:12.400
you need permission from the vice
president for researchers office.

03a1536d-1f48-4b8e-bbef-2d1b91993224-0
00:50:12.640 --> 00:50:14.040
And so they look at it and make sure.

0f119f22-7e4f-43ea-a43f-91ef8075cb7b-0
00:50:14.040 --> 00:50:17.763
And then they basically say,
have you engaged with every relevant

0f119f22-7e4f-43ea-a43f-91ef8075cb7b-1
00:50:17.763 --> 00:50:19.400
regulatory authority already?

b9e557ec-b7ef-48ad-b0f8-8b992b5929a9-0
00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:21.240
And I have learned that this is the thing
you have to do.

a25bee01-e045-40b5-83e2-977b0f870363-0
00:50:21.240 --> 00:50:24.546
You have to go to them and saying, Yep,
here's here's the local,

a25bee01-e045-40b5-83e2-977b0f870363-1
00:50:24.546 --> 00:50:26.480
state and federal regulatory approval.

34884298-f09d-4a26-b0ad-7cd1fd928f53-0
00:50:26.560 --> 00:50:29.564
And here is a letter from the Office of
Science and Technology Policy at the

34884298-f09d-4a26-b0ad-7cd1fd928f53-1
00:50:29.564 --> 00:50:31.360
White House saying that they approve of
this.

4ba1b482-fd22-47b2-8e78-95ab16eb579a-0
00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:34.040
And then maybe you'll get it through MIT.

82d7b103-fadb-4c1f-bbc1-c6f0a11d8a1a-0
00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:41.847
It's sometimes I can't fathom how it is,
how we go full throttle on understanding

82d7b103-fadb-4c1f-bbc1-c6f0a11d8a1a-1
00:50:41.847 --> 00:50:46.343
how pandemic viruses work and yet we're
so constrained and cautious on things

82d7b103-fadb-4c1f-bbc1-c6f0a11d8a1a-2
00:50:46.343 --> 00:50:46.920
like this.

ae0c964d-4219-4b96-9d12-01fb3e0c476c-0
00:50:47.120 --> 00:50:49.417
So no,
we don't have anything specifically for

ae0c964d-4219-4b96-9d12-01fb3e0c476c-1
00:50:49.417 --> 00:50:50.200
supporting that.

d37ca7cf-9b11-48e1-8066-a394bcad5529-0
00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:50.640
It would.

273bc83d-bdf1-405b-be48-898b5072744d-0
00:50:50.680 --> 00:50:53.120
It sounds lovely and it's amazing that
you're doing it.

29b66740-4538-4bbc-a184-d082788cc3d6-0
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:54.760
We don't have anything quite like that.

a5bdfe6c-0c11-440c-928e-210c831d72a1-0
00:50:55.560 --> 00:51:00.651
We do have the advantage of the city of
Cambridge has a biosafety committee for

a5bdfe6c-0c11-440c-928e-210c831d72a1-1
00:51:00.651 --> 00:51:05.679
the city originating from the original
recombinant DNA moratorium and the city

a5bdfe6c-0c11-440c-928e-210c831d72a1-2
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:07.080
of Boston has one too.

5af534f6-9369-4f89-aa00-0a7076923448-0
00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:08.840
So we often talk to them.

deb77d5a-29d3-4ca1-94f5-806fc8af1dda-0
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:12.640
And the other resource that we have do
have at MIT who are really great.

87f8980a-94da-476d-8970-35b3aa1aac9d-0
00:51:13.080 --> 00:51:18.017
Our environmental health services group
is which runs our biosafety committee

87f8980a-94da-476d-8970-35b3aa1aac9d-1
00:51:18.017 --> 00:51:18.840
which I'm on.

272a4e5f-62fa-4308-a33c-168cee8ac596-0
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:22.039
And our,
our biosafety officers are really great

272a4e5f-62fa-4308-a33c-168cee8ac596-1
00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:25.304
and they talk us,
talk to us about this to help us engage

272a4e5f-62fa-4308-a33c-168cee8ac596-2
00:51:25.304 --> 00:51:26.600
with the EPA and so on.

8d899957-c112-4f45-8509-981a0ad03493-0
00:51:26.600 --> 00:51:29.978
So they're the closest equivalent,
but they're not really about going out to

8d899957-c112-4f45-8509-981a0ad03493-1
00:51:29.978 --> 00:51:32.435
the community,
except insofar as saying you should talk

8d899957-c112-4f45-8509-981a0ad03493-2
00:51:32.435 --> 00:51:35.200
to the city biosafety committee because
they're the community.

404d8467-6b93-4ff7-8f9f-6facecb2b6ae-0
00:51:35.200 --> 00:51:37.021
I mean,
I think it would be a lot harder for them

404d8467-6b93-4ff7-8f9f-6facecb2b6ae-1
00:51:37.021 --> 00:51:38.880
to support me if I were doing work in New
Zealand.

8ef22f1d-0670-43ae-a7c7-da04729a2508-0
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:40.760
Right, right, right.

c1bd3e95-acf3-420c-90f6-f97aca92c2e2-0
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:44.560
They know they have,
I'm doing the work in Salem.

1608d226-ea7f-4a93-98c0-8707178b51dd-0
00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:49.413
So they have personal and professional
connections throughout the city,

1608d226-ea7f-4a93-98c0-8707178b51dd-1
00:51:49.413 --> 00:51:52.971
so with the community,
but also with the mayor's office,

1608d226-ea7f-4a93-98c0-8707178b51dd-2
00:51:52.971 --> 00:51:53.720
for example.

6682ccb4-f64e-40b9-80e9-ee33f4daf0a0-0
00:51:54.160 --> 00:51:57.400
So those types of connections are really
helpful.

6207a1b7-7deb-452f-8fb4-924f2902c2e0-0
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:02.310
But the other element here is that that
makes the community based participatory

6207a1b7-7deb-452f-8fb4-924f2902c2e0-1
00:52:02.310 --> 00:52:05.931
research should I don't mean to make this
about me, sorry,

6207a1b7-7deb-452f-8fb4-924f2902c2e0-2
00:52:05.931 --> 00:52:10.903
but the thing that really works well is
that I have partners in a partner in the

6207a1b7-7deb-452f-8fb4-924f2902c2e0-3
00:52:10.903 --> 00:52:15.199
city and a partner in the community and
we are equals in the project.

d1f650ea-9a13-40e3-84e6-938d4149176a-0
00:52:15.680 --> 00:52:19.317
And we always,
I always consult with them before each

d1f650ea-9a13-40e3-84e6-938d4149176a-1
00:52:19.317 --> 00:52:24.640
step and they do the same with me and
they bring different types of expertise.

b964c47d-22ef-43b6-8854-773f611bcabe-0
00:52:24.640 --> 00:52:28.556
So, you know, that's that's super,
super helpful because sometimes my

b964c47d-22ef-43b6-8854-773f611bcabe-1
00:52:28.556 --> 00:52:33.200
community partner will put on the brakes
and say, yeah, no, no, no, no, you don't.

53848f60-4e72-4179-8ed1-754552a647d0-0
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:39.091
I'm like, but, but but I listen to her,
you know,

53848f60-4e72-4179-8ed1-754552a647d0-1
00:52:39.091 --> 00:52:43.955
so and and also if I have a need that
from the city and she has a way of

53848f60-4e72-4179-8ed1-754552a647d0-2
00:52:43.955 --> 00:52:48.885
figuring out how to get that, you know,
so it's that sounds very like the

53848f60-4e72-4179-8ed1-754552a647d0-3
00:52:48.885 --> 00:52:53.415
situation that we've established on
Nantucket where just the board,

53848f60-4e72-4179-8ed1-754552a647d0-4
00:52:53.415 --> 00:52:57.679
the Board of Health commissioner just
just orchestrates things.

4d2081b0-5789-47a0-9d25-3a76c4640341-0
00:52:57.680 --> 00:53:01.188
And then a former member of the Select
board handles the ACT,

4d2081b0-5789-47a0-9d25-3a76c4640341-1
00:53:01.188 --> 00:53:03.000
handles that side of government.

19430bff-4ac8-47a9-9665-e23f508c4211-0
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:07.943
And then we have a local the local
skeptic who's in tune with the people who

19430bff-4ac8-47a9-9665-e23f508c4211-1
00:53:07.943 --> 00:53:11.880
really don't like the idea of engineering
life across the board.

5d95564e-4471-439e-a756-fd3176f3c102-0
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:13.600
You know, the are so important.

e031a868-2095-4ba9-aea2-d6194085be3d-0
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:17.000
Absolutely.

869882b3-8f19-458f-9afa-529f7f6a3d26-0
00:53:17.120 --> 00:53:20.760
Yeah, because even if they're wrong,
they're going to influence other people.

4238a443-097b-446c-81d3-d485086b0638-0
00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:24.280
So it will turn the yeah, you.

e929e5bd-4116-400e-afb0-c8414ba011c7-0
00:53:24.600 --> 00:53:26.200
I had to do like some quick
troubleshooting.

10f024df-74c9-48b1-911b-bdb735b5ee09-0
00:53:26.200 --> 00:53:30.659
We had an article in the Globe and I
there were I had to watch social media

10f024df-74c9-48b1-911b-bdb735b5ee09-1
00:53:30.659 --> 00:53:35.060
because there were some of these like
people who are like we're, you know,

10f024df-74c9-48b1-911b-bdb735b5ee09-2
00:53:35.060 --> 00:53:37.759
they they they were, they're negative,
right.

5c2e423c-9d9a-4430-90ee-9a9df5134a8a-0
00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:40.841
So there's maybe 2,
but they were popping up all over the

5c2e423c-9d9a-4430-90ee-9a9df5134a8a-1
00:53:40.841 --> 00:53:41.160
place.

c08dd072-8449-4556-9685-7dd7432d99f5-0
00:53:43.640 --> 00:53:46.109
Yeah, it's,
it's it's really hard because some folks

c08dd072-8449-4556-9685-7dd7432d99f5-1
00:53:46.109 --> 00:53:47.880
feel very strongly about these things.

910bd647-10f3-488b-9e3b-cad4ec967d05-0
00:53:48.120 --> 00:53:50.840
And you have to ensure that everyone's
voice is heard.

581e7599-c454-448d-a74f-184be6c7a1c6-0
00:53:51.200 --> 00:53:54.598
But at the same time,
you try to avoid misleading and you have

581e7599-c454-448d-a74f-184be6c7a1c6-1
00:53:54.598 --> 00:53:57.080
to try to avoid letting other people
mislead.

af9b5064-546c-4402-99e1-2f5b08c89b5e-0
00:53:57.560 --> 00:53:58.160
What's going on?

2134db42-9c15-4d7c-be5a-a8eecafbf904-0
00:53:58.160 --> 00:54:00.520
I mean, people,
people call these Frankenmice.

c14cfa11-366e-4cc4-b239-05f8f09b74d6-0
00:54:00.520 --> 00:54:01.200
Of course they do.

9e144d9f-5b0e-4912-9556-3830a496284c-0
00:54:01.200 --> 00:54:02.320
Like, that's just how it is.

ee2f5411-a621-42d7-87a8-6bf6134ddf67-0
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:04.744
I mean,
but for the most part on the islands,

ee2f5411-a621-42d7-87a8-6bf6134ddf67-1
00:54:04.744 --> 00:54:08.960
people hate Lyme disease enough that
they're really interested in going for it.

e90f8238-258e-4e5d-b5d6-11a8bcaf4c7f-0
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:12.000
Although the the derail is always, well,
how about we just shoot all the deer?

f0e0d4a7-1fe8-4852-9605-5d53ecbdf742-0
00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:14.440
It's like,
you've tried that many times before.

4fb334cf-7bd1-42c4-88d6-609fea4e3e1a-0
00:54:14.640 --> 00:54:15.480
They're like, no, no, no.

fe3fdacf-8a43-4eb4-ac51-f25961dcc2e9-0
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:16.760
But I've never been on it before.

e408c75d-531c-4d8b-8349-8afd475d40ba-0
00:54:16.760 --> 00:54:20.441
I am so charismatic and persuasive,
and I will convince everyone that we will

e408c75d-531c-4d8b-8349-8afd475d40ba-1
00:54:20.441 --> 00:54:21.480
shoot all of the deer.

b2e9060d-dbf4-48d1-a5af-132667113638-0
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:24.582
Now it's like,
you go do that and we'll be back in a

b2e9060d-dbf4-48d1-a5af-132667113638-1
00:54:24.582 --> 00:54:26.280
year and see how that's gone.

6566c2da-e1d2-4446-a5ad-9c2444853377-0
00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:28.760
I remember hearing about that effort on
Rahegan.

b3d88f73-5168-4c9f-8cc9-5224c7eba446-0
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:29.640
Yeah.

fef3cba4-3c89-406e-bf2f-184639552035-0
00:54:29.640 --> 00:54:32.440
What was the outcome there?

63955fea-fb3e-4991-89ad-3aebfc8b396c-0
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:33.600
It mostly worked.

79ad3f9f-26e4-48b7-b6e4-3f6f385e9cae-0
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:35.040
It mostly worked.

7921db60-17eb-4c40-9961-fec8854cfb48-0
00:54:35.160 --> 00:54:35.440
Yep.

2d5002e6-8353-4d4b-94b7-ff85dbf58e10-0
00:54:35.520 --> 00:54:37.966
That's the that's the strongest evidence
that in fact,

2d5002e6-8353-4d4b-94b7-ff85dbf58e10-1
00:54:37.966 --> 00:54:41.080
if you just shot all the deer,
then the problem would mostly go away.

9c3f5993-c19e-4022-9055-fa00f52a8ae0-0
00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:43.920
That's great.

fd3853bc-785a-4384-90a9-170974b4f1e6-0
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:44.120
Yeah.

eaacf357-5218-4780-b29f-abf438bc5e2a-0
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:50.879
So Sam, yeah,
I think you were the first to kind of

eaacf357-5218-4780-b29f-abf438bc5e2a-1
00:54:50.879 --> 00:54:55.240
associate the terms CRISPR and gene drive.

6594e146-10e2-4850-91a4-49b5d0c1f52e-0
00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:00.710
Can you say something about how other
people use CRISPR and what linking that

6594e146-10e2-4850-91a4-49b5d0c1f52e-1
00:55:00.710 --> 00:55:02.280
gene drive actually means?

95ecc90d-ffa5-40b0-ab77-d401141eab54-0
00:55:03.120 --> 00:55:05.276
Yeah,
So CRISPR is normally actually saying

95ecc90d-ffa5-40b0-ab77-d401141eab54-1
00:55:05.276 --> 00:55:07.040
what people normally use CRISPR for.

f1b020bd-39b5-4c01-8d10-e42c0156addb-0
00:55:07.040 --> 00:55:09.827
I mean,
people use CRISPR for almost everything

f1b020bd-39b5-4c01-8d10-e42c0156addb-1
00:55:09.827 --> 00:55:14.530
now just because CRISPR is a protein that
allows you to input an RNA and it will

f1b020bd-39b5-4c01-8d10-e42c0156addb-2
00:55:14.530 --> 00:55:18.420
then go and find some other DNA,
some matching DNA sequence or RNA

f1b020bd-39b5-4c01-8d10-e42c0156addb-3
00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:19.640
sequence in the cell.

7adb4aac-81ce-4afc-bc70-97a825345b3a-0
00:55:20.200 --> 00:55:23.200
So you can the natively, it's scissors.

72bf139b-4200-4a35-a5c0-b85ffaac748c-0
00:55:23.200 --> 00:55:27.152
And so people use it to cut the DNA,
which then triggers the cell to try to

72bf139b-4200-4a35-a5c0-b85ffaac748c-1
00:55:27.152 --> 00:55:28.400
find a way to repair it.

cbc5a90e-d598-4302-9082-0b731448ba95-0
00:55:28.680 --> 00:55:31.819
So if you provide the new version to be
inserted,

cbc5a90e-d598-4302-9082-0b731448ba95-1
00:55:31.819 --> 00:55:36.780
then the cell will often input insert
your new version to repair the damage as

cbc5a90e-d598-4302-9082-0b731448ba95-2
00:55:36.780 --> 00:55:40.800
though it were using copying it over from
the other chromosome.

8075fee3-30ec-4186-b880-88c8d09506e4-0
00:55:41.800 --> 00:55:45.880
But you can also nick just one strand and
cause other things to happen.

93a30f90-fcdf-4837-843a-da6677e5b473-0
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:49.280
You can attach a base editor to change
just one base.

a8231147-cf3a-4d2f-a84a-04c91b9934f6-0
00:55:49.560 --> 00:55:54.633
You can nick 1 strand and then have a
reverse transcriptase make a new single

a8231147-cf3a-4d2f-a84a-04c91b9934f6-1
00:55:54.633 --> 00:55:57.040
stranded DNA sequence to be inserted.

5f0a2747-1f2b-4ca5-bb25-92b41d87f725-0
00:55:57.040 --> 00:55:58.000
That's prime editing.

6d262752-abd9-4add-b474-0f47be356e97-0
00:55:58.240 --> 00:56:03.441
You can break the scissors function and
attach an activator or repressor to turn

6d262752-abd9-4add-b474-0f47be356e97-1
00:56:03.441 --> 00:56:05.240
genes on or off with CRISPR.

eb9b1cc1-7dce-45cc-97f1-9ff2d458e2ae-0
00:56:05.480 --> 00:56:10.718
But the native form is just use the
scissors to cut it and then introduce DNA,

eb9b1cc1-7dce-45cc-97f1-9ff2d458e2ae-1
00:56:10.718 --> 00:56:12.840
new DNA sequence to be inserted.

fb14ea1d-5b3a-475f-8545-96dc5982afa6-0
00:56:13.560 --> 00:56:17.362
So in a,
in a mouse that's called a knock in,

fb14ea1d-5b3a-475f-8545-96dc5982afa6-1
00:56:17.362 --> 00:56:23.810
but the gene drive is just using is
encoding the editing machinery along with

fb14ea1d-5b3a-475f-8545-96dc5982afa6-2
00:56:23.810 --> 00:56:28.440
the edit such that editing can happen
every generation.

e779066c-96aa-484f-ab02-a5e0b1287599-0
00:56:28.560 --> 00:56:29.600
So that's the gene Dr.

c7cffc98-d11e-4593-a172-40025e61ca59-0
00:56:29.600 --> 00:56:30.080
aspect.

3eb3d4ea-45bd-4a44-a7b1-6952df906edc-0
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:31.080
And gene Dr.

4d09041f-56f0-4ee7-9efc-b7a1098529d5-0
00:56:31.080 --> 00:56:32.840
occurs very commonly in nature.

9dca3311-b420-41ea-826d-709ca3ca75ce-0
00:56:33.120 --> 00:56:38.247
And that particular mechanism of just a
of an endonuclease on one chromosome

9dca3311-b420-41ea-826d-709ca3ca75ce-1
00:56:38.247 --> 00:56:43.242
cutting the chromosome that doesn't have
it so that the gene encoding that

9dca3311-b420-41ea-826d-709ca3ca75ce-2
00:56:43.242 --> 00:56:45.240
endonuclease gets copied over.

c72e86eb-2b5c-45b7-946f-a5527278c65b-0
00:56:45.560 --> 00:56:50.960
That's very common in yeasts in
particular, also in some bacteriophages.

98894b7d-4cbe-4efb-a1d8-c34175433fcc-0
00:56:51.520 --> 00:56:55.841
What's new about CRISPR is it's just a
endonuclease that we can very easily

98894b7d-4cbe-4efb-a1d8-c34175433fcc-1
00:56:55.841 --> 00:56:56.240
target.

0d2532fb-adc5-4a07-bdce-cffc0a4fa8ee-0
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:00.805
And I was far from the one first one to
suggest we use gene drive to engineer

0d2532fb-adc5-4a07-bdce-cffc0a4fa8ee-1
00:57:00.805 --> 00:57:01.560
wild organisms.

de65abe6-ef50-42d2-a7fa-a5bd48be6ae5-0
00:57:01.560 --> 00:57:04.297
That was Austin Burt of Imperial College
London,

de65abe6-ef50-42d2-a7fa-a5bd48be6ae5-1
00:57:04.297 --> 00:57:08.933
and he actually launched a project trying
to get it working in malarial mosquitoes

de65abe6-ef50-42d2-a7fa-a5bd48be6ae5-2
00:57:08.933 --> 00:57:11.280
using an actual yeast homing endonuclease.

6fe0c62c-abe4-4d37-8e70-24a7aa404ca8-0
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:14.826
Unfortunately,
as someone in the directed evolution

6fe0c62c-abe4-4d37-8e70-24a7aa404ca8-1
00:57:14.826 --> 00:57:16.786
field,
you do not want to engineer homing

6fe0c62c-abe4-4d37-8e70-24a7aa404ca8-2
00:57:16.786 --> 00:57:17.440
endonucleases.

f4fbfc83-52e2-496d-9c84-87272617b9f5-0
00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:22.116
They are a tremendous pain, extremely,
extremely difficult to retarget and even

f4fbfc83-52e2-496d-9c84-87272617b9f5-1
00:57:22.116 --> 00:57:26.443
and if you only cut it one site,
you run the risk of acquiring A mutation

f4fbfc83-52e2-496d-9c84-87272617b9f5-2
00:57:26.443 --> 00:57:28.840
that then would block cutting thereafter.

77273ed6-8240-4f0e-9e23-68155a229a10-0
00:57:29.120 --> 00:57:33.075
So that's the resistance that I referred
to that capped out that poorly functional

77273ed6-8240-4f0e-9e23-68155a229a10-1
00:57:33.075 --> 00:57:33.600
gene drive.

0ed29688-4c1d-436b-8779-a3312cf4759a-0
00:57:33.600 --> 00:57:38.040
What you want is to cut multiple sites
and CRISPR lets us do that very easily.

73128153-2d2b-4524-a33a-e102167c00ab-0
00:57:38.720 --> 00:57:44.486
And CRISPR also lets us ensure that the
process is is reversible just because,

73128153-2d2b-4524-a33a-e102167c00ab-1
00:57:44.486 --> 00:57:49.522
and this is in fact why CRISPR based gene
drive is defence dominant,

73128153-2d2b-4524-a33a-e102167c00ab-2
00:57:49.522 --> 00:57:52.807
which is rare in biotech because it is
slow,

73128153-2d2b-4524-a33a-e102167c00ab-3
00:57:52.807 --> 00:57:55.800
spreads only vertically over generations.

dff8a2ae-4328-4fa2-ad43-2afa8790df3e-0
00:57:56.480 --> 00:57:58.600
It's obvious the sequencing,
you can't hide it.

88d0a883-4cc3-43f8-aa2d-554f409f2929-0
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:03.535
You don't see CRISPR systems in sexually
reproducing genomes,

88d0a883-4cc3-43f8-aa2d-554f409f2929-1
00:58:03.535 --> 00:58:08.672
and it's easily countered because any
CRISPR based gene drive can be

88d0a883-4cc3-43f8-aa2d-554f409f2929-2
00:58:08.672 --> 00:58:14.628
overwritten by another CRISPR based gene
drive that is identical except for the

88d0a883-4cc3-43f8-aa2d-554f409f2929-3
00:58:14.628 --> 00:58:20.658
addition of some extra guide RNAs that
targets the first one and engineers it so

88d0a883-4cc3-43f8-aa2d-554f409f2929-4
00:58:20.658 --> 00:58:22.520
it doesn't target itself.

a2befa90-a2cd-4349-a6ae-d0b6470f4f02-0
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:27.154
So that way you can just take one that is
doing something wrong,

a2befa90-a2cd-4349-a6ae-d0b6470f4f02-1
00:58:27.154 --> 00:58:30.206
remove whatever it is about it that's
doing it wrong,

a2befa90-a2cd-4349-a6ae-d0b6470f4f02-2
00:58:30.206 --> 00:58:32.920
and then program it to overwrite the
first one.

2dc9f089-0cb8-455b-b917-f35b6f36c639-0
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:38.752
And because of the dynamics of
reproduction in the relevant organisms,

2dc9f089-0cb8-455b-b917-f35b6f36c639-1
00:58:38.752 --> 00:58:41.280
you effectively have a defender advantage.

d0555399-343a-4fa6-b474-1f87ceac304e-0
00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:46.449
You can always raise more mosquitoes and
release them to counteract a gene drive

d0555399-343a-4fa6-b474-1f87ceac304e-1
00:58:46.449 --> 00:58:48.320
that is doing something wrong.

d430ee12-c648-4e03-9340-f4d21533e293-0
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:54.887
You can't actually turn the population to
the exact genetic sequence it was before,

d430ee12-c648-4e03-9340-f4d21533e293-1
00:58:54.887 --> 00:58:56.080
That is beyond us.

3318b741-90b8-43e5-b54d-b95add87e5ff-0
00:58:56.360 --> 00:58:59.817
But you can ensure that the phenotype
will go back to what it was before and

3318b741-90b8-43e5-b54d-b95add87e5ff-1
00:58:59.817 --> 00:59:01.120
when we built the first ones.

fd26b316-f683-4c2f-80a7-52e8c01048fa-0
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.600
Examples of CRISPR based gene drive in
yeast.

95a554bb-2db7-4ec7-a7c3-986e14bd829e-0
00:59:04.040 --> 00:59:08.303
We simultaneously built one version that
was intended to knockout a native gene,

95a554bb-2db7-4ec7-a7c3-986e14bd829e-1
00:59:08.303 --> 00:59:12.355
and then at the same time we built the
countering version that overwrote the

95a554bb-2db7-4ec7-a7c3-986e14bd829e-2
00:59:12.355 --> 00:59:14.040
first one and restored the gene.

8d55c04d-9318-4db9-9f1c-8b9969956452-0
00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:15.640
And they both worked.

1f777032-47ef-4a9a-9207-e3c649143023-0
00:59:17.240 --> 00:59:20.301
But we wanted to set the precedent of
don't build the gene drive without

1f777032-47ef-4a9a-9207-e3c649143023-1
00:59:20.301 --> 00:59:22.440
building the countering immunising
reversal drive.

ccc35996-3ddf-45c2-93e9-6bd206e5713e-0
00:59:23.200 --> 00:59:25.160
Not when everyone ignored, but we tried.

03d32d76-0cd3-4ce8-9b22-15bfa04929c0-0
00:59:25.160 --> 00:59:25.280
Yeah.

202ca7c6-1626-4121-a9f9-a7b1fadc3b60-0
00:59:26.720 --> 00:59:27.560
You had a question.

91804da1-ff39-43de-b865-5ebcc4206e8f-0
00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:28.480
Yeah.

c82e590f-3a3a-4197-81b3-3f03fadd2220-0
00:59:28.560 --> 00:59:36.148
I was just wondering with a disease like
Lyme or you're not relying on herd

c82e590f-3a3a-4197-81b3-3f03fadd2220-1
00:59:36.148 --> 00:59:42.040
immunity that comes not what,
why is there a a preference?

57687529-6862-48a8-b1e4-88858d68e0e3-0
00:59:42.040 --> 00:59:43.200
Or maybe there isn't a preference.

bb4440ad-c674-4da3-a702-9a5124c6ee1d-0
00:59:43.200 --> 00:59:44.240
Maybe there's another reason.

34fc220a-0c17-4e1f-ba6c-1a9496e8190b-0
00:59:44.640 --> 00:59:46.800
But why go to the vector?

50cfaf46-a5be-4ee2-b335-38b0a242ac0d-0
00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:53.904
Why engineer the vector and instead of
just working on a vaccine for humans for

50cfaf46-a5be-4ee2-b335-38b0a242ac0d-1
00:59:53.904 --> 00:59:55.040
Lyme disease?

b303791a-3e7e-4e02-9b8a-a616fdf6f046-0
00:59:55.040 --> 00:59:58.080
So there is so OK,
so the history of the Lyme vaccine is

b303791a-3e7e-4e02-9b8a-a616fdf6f046-1
00:59:58.080 --> 00:59:58.880
kind of a mess.

254a4620-7498-407a-a34e-31fcc4494c9a-0
00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:02.812
There used to be one for humans still
available for dogs,

254a4620-7498-407a-a34e-31fcc4494c9a-1
01:00:02.812 --> 01:00:06.200
but it was withdrawn from the market
because there was a backlash.

62147868-de49-40d4-b5cb-58565867e192-0
01:00:06.200 --> 01:00:08.440
It was at the very beginning of the anti
vax movement.

3893feca-24c5-452b-93c7-56c4befeecfd-0
01:00:09.160 --> 01:00:13.332
People were claiming that it would the
vaccine was giving them Lyme arthritis,

3893feca-24c5-452b-93c7-56c4befeecfd-1
01:00:13.332 --> 01:00:17.240
and the FDA investigated and concluded
that it was not in fact happening.

ad4d4157-656c-4d4e-a0a9-6291129dd658-0
01:00:17.520 --> 01:00:19.040
But people believed it was happening.

7b8dd386-252a-456b-9efd-76c96708fe57-0
01:00:19.520 --> 01:00:21.560
And there was a lot.

0cf3a899-7024-43ea-9c08-687d15ff08a2-0
01:00:21.560 --> 01:00:26.472
There was campaigns and lawsuits against
the pharmaceutical company that produced

0cf3a899-7024-43ea-9c08-687d15ff08a2-1
01:00:26.472 --> 01:00:29.708
it and they,
because it had only been approved for 15

0cf3a899-7024-43ea-9c08-687d15ff08a2-2
01:00:29.708 --> 01:00:32.584
and older and it wasn't very commonly
taken up,

0cf3a899-7024-43ea-9c08-687d15ff08a2-3
01:00:32.584 --> 01:00:35.400
they weren't really making money on it
anyway.

b86bf2d4-372e-4d0f-91c3-01c693b32d18-0
01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:37.872
So then in the face of all these lawsuits
and bad press,

b86bf2d4-372e-4d0f-91c3-01c693b32d18-1
01:00:37.872 --> 01:00:41.200
the company just said well enough with
that, we're just going to withdraw it.

999e228b-3ac1-4dba-859b-238b70c36748-0
01:00:42.720 --> 01:00:44.720
So they still sell it in the veterinary
market.

8ca16bde-ac38-429e-a157-8483d8863cc0-0
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:46.400
It's the literally the same vaccine.

52c80eb0-88fa-469b-b12a-37b6501cb811-0
01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:48.461
So if you want a lime vaccine,
you just have to have a friendly

52c80eb0-88fa-469b-b12a-37b6501cb811-1
01:00:48.461 --> 01:00:48.880
veterinarian.

327a02f3-6c07-4d9d-800f-c6c6cc5ee018-0
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:56.760
It's about 75% protective, which you know,
that's better than nothing.

d6a9837b-1284-4005-9b81-09d91d13d8b1-0
01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:58.800
It doesn't get rid of the problem,
but it would help a lot.

6f0c3fd4-d707-46c4-b604-22b64a08e1fc-0
01:00:59.200 --> 01:01:03.088
And thankfully,
there is a new one being developed where

6f0c3fd4-d707-46c4-b604-22b64a08e1fc-1
01:01:03.088 --> 01:01:08.000
this time the strategy was to include
coverage of the European strains.

2e85077c-4d4c-43cb-bcf9-6d9e853d63f3-0
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:11.360
So they would also be effective in Europe
because the original 1 was only the North

2e85077c-4d4c-43cb-bcf9-6d9e853d63f3-1
01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:12.000
American strain.

71f985f6-5529-4e2c-8488-4e2692fa0538-0
01:01:12.600 --> 01:01:14.560
So they're hoping that the European
market will help.

9dfb923e-8c03-4753-96f3-02354217a12b-0
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:16.560
So hopefully that will come out.

df4de36c-8ce8-4d6f-af36-da167b100940-0
01:01:16.920 --> 01:01:20.280
But even that one is also still only
about 75% effective.

f49003db-d8e1-496b-bc6f-1dbd8f86f5f1-0
01:01:20.720 --> 01:01:24.240
So that would be much better,
especially if kids can get it.

33290c67-0ab2-4c3e-a396-708757492e17-0
01:01:25.160 --> 01:01:29.800
But they're probably not going to approve
it for, you know, age 1 and up.

3d07fccc-dd58-4373-8258-29e05ff1fbaa-0
01:01:30.160 --> 01:01:33.984
So there's going to be a window of
vulnerable kids and still 25% is still

3d07fccc-dd58-4373-8258-29e05ff1fbaa-1
01:01:33.984 --> 01:01:38.221
quite a lot of risk when it comes to how
nasty Lyme disease can be in the chronic

3d07fccc-dd58-4373-8258-29e05ff1fbaa-2
01:01:38.221 --> 01:01:38.480
form.

5d9fe647-6d24-452a-9dfb-3098bb3d2560-0
01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:43.082
So, but the real,
but the real answer is we needed some

5d9fe647-6d24-452a-9dfb-3098bb3d2560-1
01:01:43.082 --> 01:01:48.162
problem sufficiently obvious to try to
figure out how to develop eco

5d9fe647-6d24-452a-9dfb-3098bb3d2560-2
01:01:48.162 --> 01:01:49.120
technologies.

6c0c6a4f-19a4-4fb5-ba4e-cd781d54dd5b-0
01:01:50.120 --> 01:01:54.329
And that's why we did this,
not because we decided Lyme was the most

6c0c6a4f-19a4-4fb5-ba4e-cd781d54dd5b-1
01:01:54.329 --> 01:01:58.294
important thing that we should be working
on in, in all honesty,

6c0c6a4f-19a4-4fb5-ba4e-cd781d54dd5b-2
01:01:58.294 --> 01:01:59.880
one or two more questions.

af89da08-556f-42a5-9a70-e4abb336b57d-0
01:02:02.680 --> 01:02:02.880
Yeah.

d2d12bf2-64e9-44f0-b057-b00f47b6dbd8-0
01:02:03.120 --> 01:02:04.960
Is anyone there an immunologist?

db0fc71c-78bc-4b9b-b5e2-653f4688b6ac-0
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:16.820
So our primary immunologist is actually
our collaborator at Dana Farber,

db0fc71c-78bc-4b9b-b5e2-653f4688b6ac-1
01:02:16.820 --> 01:02:18.320
Wayne Morasco.

d4dc04b5-ba3c-44d6-92a7-f6cbebdd508e-0
01:02:19.720 --> 01:02:19.960
Yeah.

b6de785e-b47e-471b-accb-39490678fe3e-0
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:24.040
Yeah.

8e2cf1e8-9144-476a-a1c8-b5ca736e3537-0
01:02:24.040 --> 01:02:26.200
We don't have a primary immunologist in
my group.

6809cb81-e23c-4da0-ad35-456acfcaff84-0
01:02:28.680 --> 01:02:31.749
We have people with a wide variety of
forms of expertise,

6809cb81-e23c-4da0-ad35-456acfcaff84-1
01:02:31.749 --> 01:02:33.760
but not immunology is not one of them.

82311d1d-601f-4e52-9159-dad72093050b-0
01:02:33.760 --> 01:02:45.588
Can you say what is there about the
hamster that made the white footed mouths

82311d1d-601f-4e52-9159-dad72093050b-1
01:02:45.588 --> 01:02:57.720
closer to that than to other types of Oh
yeah, strains and all of the genetics?

96e8a749-7dc2-4b7f-9dcd-f156cea11c44-0
01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:02.902
So yeah, so it's just, yes,
I was just noting that the oh,

96e8a749-7dc2-4b7f-9dcd-f156cea11c44-1
01:03:02.902 --> 01:03:04.200
where was that?

79866385-3339-47a9-8097-dcd0fbb96082-0
01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:09.681
I was just noting that the there we go
that they're more closely related

79866385-3339-47a9-8097-dcd0fbb96082-1
01:03:09.681 --> 01:03:14.240
evolutionarily to hamsters than they are
to lab mice and rats.

b7b210ee-5bc4-467b-8192-e9396ec23bea-0
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:17.440
And reproductively they're also more
similar.

becbdbfa-4990-4abc-984c-d2e58b9f627a-0
01:03:17.440 --> 01:03:20.100
So our,
our activity monitoring trick actually

becbdbfa-4990-4abc-984c-d2e58b9f627a-1
01:03:20.100 --> 01:03:23.610
works in all of them,
but it seems to actually work better in

becbdbfa-4990-4abc-984c-d2e58b9f627a-2
01:03:23.610 --> 01:03:24.120
in these.

56feb7c6-165c-4aa3-9baf-6b9d35076abd-0
01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:29.000
And so we're making it easier to engineer
hamsters as well.

f0ed24aa-a4c1-41ad-ad18-bec80f2a8174-0
01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:34.173
So if you need one and if you want a
glowing hamster, Cameron,

f0ed24aa-a4c1-41ad-ad18-bec80f2a8174-1
01:03:34.173 --> 01:03:39.839
you told us a great story,
a heartwarming story following your Maori

f0ed24aa-a4c1-41ad-ad18-bec80f2a8174-2
01:03:39.839 --> 01:03:46.572
faux pas and your trips out to Nantucket
and Martha's Vineyard Stand back to what

f0ed24aa-a4c1-41ad-ad18-bec80f2a8174-3
01:03:46.572 --> 01:03:47.640
was it, 2016?

4ec0d9b6-ad62-4aa8-a0bb-56b96aae9ed6-0
01:03:47.640 --> 01:03:47.920
Yeah.

bdf11c69-8f9c-45a6-b37d-fb60c03c0048-0
01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:53.708
In your group,
who was the impetus to let's go out and

bdf11c69-8f9c-45a6-b37d-fb60c03c0048-1
01:03:53.708 --> 01:03:57.365
be humble scientists to ask,
was it you personally,

bdf11c69-8f9c-45a6-b37d-fb60c03c0048-2
01:03:57.365 --> 01:04:02.640
or was this a new movement in the guys
that work in this particular field?

5152156b-d3b6-40ed-898d-af4c4888bca9-0
01:04:03.240 --> 01:04:08.280
It was mostly me trying to figure out how
to engage in this topic.

b22dfc6d-759e-49f5-a26e-02393f048718-0
01:04:08.640 --> 01:04:11.723
And then I was fortunate enough to be
joined by Joanna Buckfall,

b22dfc6d-759e-49f5-a26e-02393f048718-1
01:04:11.723 --> 01:04:14.000
who's the project manager of Mice Against
Tics.

6bc45dbc-95de-4720-9cb2-9dfd1ecbc865-0
01:04:14.560 --> 01:04:18.720
She joined as a student in my lab not too
long thereafter.

37401d0e-9f77-4d59-a91b-584ce036442d-0
01:04:19.240 --> 01:04:27.800
And Sam Telford, who's at Tufts,
is our Lyme epidemiologist and ecologist.

a73b69f4-4bfb-42df-81b2-7e7bcd4b521b-0
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:33.346
And he and I invited him to just a
preliminary discussion of how should we

a73b69f4-4bfb-42df-81b2-7e7bcd4b521b-1
01:04:33.346 --> 01:04:34.360
go about this?

a0d8a6a7-ae11-47cb-9641-030f0696ed9b-0
01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:37.680
Is this a totally crazy idea before I go
and talk to these communities?

727267e7-29e8-478f-9aec-18b6a869adf1-0
01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:40.640
And Sam's, Sam is amazing.

6af154ae-7874-4685-83bd-68e417cb7832-0
01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:46.185
So he was very much oh, wow,
this is actually a novel way of tackling

6af154ae-7874-4685-83bd-68e417cb7832-1
01:04:46.185 --> 01:04:48.200
this recalcitrant problem.

1ec21b00-f214-44a3-a844-21269bc79455-0
01:04:48.200 --> 01:04:50.280
And so he was very much on board with
helping.

c8eb65c2-c276-4783-b474-8f00a08359f1-0
01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:53.840
And he's just been honestly one of the
best collaborators I've ever had.

4108b07f-49c8-4f41-bc90-f0913a6ec4cc-0
01:04:55.200 --> 01:04:56.840
So yeah, we've.

845d4c09-f2a8-4552-ad84-7d04094711b0-0
01:04:57.080 --> 01:05:03.321
And then we were very fortunate to
connect with the right people on the end

845d4c09-f2a8-4552-ad84-7d04094711b0-1
01:05:03.321 --> 01:05:04.800
tucket very early.

b736176e-e1c2-4e28-9399-fd90fc66d2e1-0
01:05:05.120 --> 01:05:05.360
Yeah.

7de56832-ae86-48df-baf6-108e7836f046-0
01:05:06.520 --> 01:05:08.325
Well,
thanks very much for joining us and for

7de56832-ae86-48df-baf6-108e7836f046-1
01:05:08.325 --> 01:05:08.600
recent.