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(upbeat music)

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- Good evening, everyone.

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My name is Noel Healy, and I'm professor

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in the Geography and
Sustainability Department

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here at Salem State University.

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I'm also joined by Joey Wolongevicz,

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founder of Sunrise Salem,

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and geography and sustainability
major at Salem State.

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Towards the end of the webinar,

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Joey will be fielding any
questions from our live viewers,

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so audience members can
submit your questions

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via the Q&A box below.

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So without further ado,

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I'd like to introduce our special guests.

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Today were delighted

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to welcome Boston Globe Climate Producer,

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Dharna Noor to Salem State's Earth Week

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climate lecture series.

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Dharna is the Boston
Globe's climate producer.

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Prior to joining the Boston
Globe's climate team,

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Dharna worked as a staff
writer with Earther,

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which is Gizmodo's climate vertical,

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where she also co-produced
a season of the podcast

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"Drilled," which is one
of my favorite podcast,

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folks, to check out.

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And this...

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episodes of season,

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she looked at the fossil
fuels influence on education,

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which is something hopefully we get

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to chat a little bit about today.

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Before that, she led the climate team

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at the Real News Network,

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and her writing has also
appeared in publications,

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including In These Times,

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Jacobin Magazine, and Truth Out.

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She's also been entering in
podcasts and radio programs

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such as Times Radio, VOX, "Tell Me More,"

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"Insurgence," and NPR's "Living on Earth."

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Dharna has quickly garnered
a stellar reputation

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as a critical climate and
energy journalist in the US,

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and we're really looking
forward to today's conversation.

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Welcome, Dharna.

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- Thank you so much,

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and thank you for that very
kind introduction, Noel.

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It's awesome to be here.

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- Yeah, so yeah, it's
great to meet you Dharna.

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I've been a fan of your work with a while,

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and we were all really
delighted to see you

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starting at The Globe.

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And I said, we,

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a lot of the climate
and energy justice folk,

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climate is a challenging topic.

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We'll try and set off with
something a little bit light.

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Maybe if you'd like to share

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what was your most fun climate
reporting assignment to date?

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Have you ever covered something
that was unusually uplifting

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or entertaining, if that
exists in the climate world?

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- Yeah, I mean, you're
right to say it's kind of

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a hard question, because
so much of the work we do,

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as you well know, in this
sort of space is so grim.

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But yes, definitely,
I've had the opportunity

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to do lots of really uplifting reporting,

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and also some really fun reporting,

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including I wrote a piece

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from the perspective of
a jellyfish one time,

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all sorts of weird stuff.

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But honestly, I think
that maybe the most fun

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that I've ever had in my reporting

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was when I reported on
Mike Rowe last year.

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Mike Rowe is the host of
the program, "Dirty Jobs,"

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but he started a new TV show last year

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that was on Discovery Plus,

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that basically I found was funded by,

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well, I didn't even find,

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he openly in the show says it
was funded by the oil lobby,

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by the American Petroleum Institute,

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which is, if you don't know,

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the biggest industry lobbying group,

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the biggest fossil fuel
industry lobbying group

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in the United States.

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And this is not his only tie
to the fossil fuel industry,

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his foundation, which is sort
of very obviously anti-union,

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anti-worker, pro-boss, pro fossil fuels,

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also takes money from the oil industry.

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I wrote a pretty snarky piece about this,

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and he responded in an
extremely condescending way,

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and we got into it of back and forth.

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And so that was probably
the most entertaining

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reporting that I've done on the beat,

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but that's not to say, I mean, yes,

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lots of incredible solutions
happening out there,

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and lots of really, really
good news to report onto.

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- Yeah, and I guess working
on the solution stuff

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is always fun,

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and we'll talk a little bit
later about the Green New Deal,

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which is something that brings
some hope and excitement,

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particularly with me,

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and when I'm talking
with my students as well.

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What do you think your most
important piece of journalism

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has been thus far?

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So this could be something that
garnered a lot of attention,

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or something which you deem as important.

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- This is such a hard question.

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I mean, I think that as a journalist,

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sometimes the struggle is knowing that

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the sort of effects
that your work can have

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are sometimes so limited
by the very things

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that you're reporting on, you know?

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You'll report on the failures
of an administration,

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or a policy or something,

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and then those exact failures
will mean that no action

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is taken on the thing
that you are reporting on.

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But one of the things that I think

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has been really rewarding for me,

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and important for me in my own work

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has been sort of looking at
the most inconvenient parts

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of the struggle to slow climate change,

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and transition to renewables.

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And I think one of the
most important stories

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that I've done on this beat

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was about a project called the
Texas Climate Jobs Program,

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a project which is in Texas

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that was led by Texas's AFLCIO,

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a massive coalition of unions.

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It was a really jobs-first
kind of climate program

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to speed the energy
transition in, obviously,

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a state that is...

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where the economy is so
heavily fueled by fossil fuels,

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no pun intended.

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And I think that that was
a really important story,

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not only because it sort of
got some attention and got

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some workers in other places
sort of excited, seemingly,

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about the possibility of a jobs-first

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climate sort of plan, but also for me,

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I think that that was a
really important story

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because it really showed me so much

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about how much there is to be missed

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when we think of climate plans as only

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about shutting down a coal plant,

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shutting down an oil rig,

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and not about building
the jobs of the future

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in a way that's really sustainable,

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and actually can foster a better world

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than the one that we
have now in so many ways.

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I know that we'll talk a little bit

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about the Green New
Deal later, but this is,

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speaking for me, not from
the Boston Globe, obviously.

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My opinions are just mine,

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but I think this is a
really important shift

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that sort of happened
in the climate movement.

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Generally, this focus on moving away

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from an austerity framework,

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and towards talking about
what fighting climate change

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can do for people to
improve people's lives,

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and that was a really
clear example of that.

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- Yeah, and labor just plays
such an number important role-

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- [Dharna] Absolutely.

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- Within the climate movement,

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and this has been really emphasized

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by the rise of the Green New Deal.

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Yeah, so you mentioned some of the kind of

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the gaps of some of the kind of

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missing stories around climate.

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What do you think are
perhaps the biggest successes

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and the biggest gaps

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in climate news reporting at the moment?

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- Great question.

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I mean, I have been on this beat

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for a relatively short time,

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and I think even in the five or so years

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that I've been focusing on climate,

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around 10 that I've
been in the media space,

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there's been just an explosion
of climate reporting.

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And that, in itself, I think is a success.

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I mean, the fact that
we have climate stories

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on the front pages of big
papers with some regularity,

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the fact that there is more
coverage of things like

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major UN climate reports
is a huge success.

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That said, I think that
the media has a really,

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really long way to go to actually treat

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the issue at the scale that
it deserves, so to speak.

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And I think that part of
what we can really do better

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as journalists is to sort of examine

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the more unsafe reactors
who might be profiting off

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of the solutions that we need,

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some of the more inconvenient aspects

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of what the climate fight might mean.

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For instance, I've been
really heartened lately

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to see a little bit more focus

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on the environmental justice impacts

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of mining for rare earth minerals,

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minerals that we need
in order to transition

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to more renewable energy,

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especially things like
solar and battery power,

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and things like this.

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And so I think that more
reporting that can sort

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of examine those
environmental justice impacts

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of even transitioning to clean energy

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will be really, really
important in the future.

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- Yeah, that's a great point.

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This is where the concept of
a just transition comes in.

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Yeah, you raise an important point there,

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and it gets me thinking
about media business models,

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and the need to generate ad revenues.

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So breaking news often tends to muscle out

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important climate news stories,

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even when the IPCC and stuff comes around.

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And how can climate reporting compete

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with this so-called tyranny of the media

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and all these competing news cycles?

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Is it possible, or have you any thoughts

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on how we can keep

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the climate crisis upfront and center?

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- Yeah, I mean, I have to
say that my thinking on this

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has sort of changed in the past few years.

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I began my career in very scrappy,

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sort of openly socialist
kind of independent media,

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nonprofit media,

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and now I'm a producer at
the Boston Globe, obviously,

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a storied and major
newspaper in this region.

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And I've really found
that people's appetite

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for climate stories, even in places where

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they might seem to be
unlikely is just so high.

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I mean, we've had top charting stories

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in a mainstream global
newspaper so frequently,

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and I think a lot of the reason that

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there's been this misconception
that climate stories

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have to be boring or aren't
of interest to people

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the way that pop culture
stories and things are

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is because we've seen
climate change for so long

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as something that's in a silo.

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But, there's no reason
that a climate story

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should ever have to be boring.

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This is something that's
reshaping the very

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fundamental fabric of human society.

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It's something that's
reshaping every facet

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of human life as we speak,

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and I think that when you
can make those connections

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and really remind everyone that
this is a story about them,

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not just somebody else,

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not just someone who's maybe
across the ocean from you,

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but a story about you right now.

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Yes, you, reader,

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that can really make a huge difference.

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But yeah, I mean,

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I'm not gonna say that it's
never disheartening to see

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just story after story that
ignores really lobbyist

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climate impacts charting in major papers,

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or on CNN, or whatever.

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But I do think that we need
to bear some responsibility

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as journalists for making it that way,

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and part of the way that you get people

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to read your stories
is you make them good,

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interesting, and feel relevant.

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And so I think that there's a lot

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that we can do on that front.

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- And I think the Green New Deal

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is something that has
captivated reader's interests

259
00:11:29,616 --> 00:11:34,240
for various reasons over the
last probably year or more.

260
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,374
And just in case some audience
members aren't familiar,

261
00:11:38,374 --> 00:11:39,540
so the Green New Deal

262
00:11:39,540 --> 00:11:42,617
is a 10-year economic mobilization plan

263
00:11:42,617 --> 00:11:45,460
that plans to rapidly transition the US

264
00:11:45,460 --> 00:11:48,566
to zero carbon economy,
while at the same time

265
00:11:48,566 --> 00:11:51,300
significantly reducing inequality

266
00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:55,502
in redressing legacies
of systematic oppression.

267
00:11:55,502 --> 00:11:57,310
So the Green New Deal has generated

268
00:11:57,310 --> 00:12:00,220
a lot of excitement amongst climate

269
00:12:00,220 --> 00:12:02,290
and energy justice communities,

270
00:12:02,290 --> 00:12:04,860
and I'd be interested
to hear your thoughts

271
00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:09,340
more just on how the emergence
of this new policy framework,

272
00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:12,200
this new policy paradigm has changed.

273
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,070
The climate debates are changed,

274
00:12:15,070 --> 00:12:18,783
maybe how readers viewed this
issue, or general public.

275
00:12:19,850 --> 00:12:20,913
- Again, speaking for me,

276
00:12:20,913 --> 00:12:23,546
and not speaking for The Boston Globe,

277
00:12:23,546 --> 00:12:26,180
it's been really
interesting to see the way

278
00:12:26,180 --> 00:12:29,810
that conversations nationally
have completely shifted,

279
00:12:29,810 --> 00:12:33,880
I think just in, again,
the past four-ish years

280
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,130
since the Green New Deal sort
of reshaped the conversation,

281
00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:38,705
came on the stage in a major way.

282
00:12:38,705 --> 00:12:42,230
And I think that one way as we
sort of talked about earlier

283
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:44,340
that this has happened is
that people are starting

284
00:12:44,340 --> 00:12:46,160
to learn that climate policies

285
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,280
don't have to be about
not having something.

286
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,540
It doesn't have to be about
having to pay more for gas.

287
00:12:52,540 --> 00:12:53,690
It doesn't have to mean

288
00:12:54,660 --> 00:12:56,920
paying higher the heat bills

289
00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,240
or paying in some way for the
transition to green energy.

290
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:01,939
It doesn't mean that
you have to stop eating

291
00:13:01,939 --> 00:13:04,410
the things that you love the most.

292
00:13:04,410 --> 00:13:05,900
I mean, in some ways, of course,

293
00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:07,850
we'll all have to make
some kinds of sacrifices.

294
00:13:07,850 --> 00:13:10,003
The world will need to go
through these fundamental shifts,

295
00:13:10,003 --> 00:13:12,400
but there are also so
many ways that our lives

296
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,070
can be so much better if we
address the climate a crisis.

297
00:13:15,070 --> 00:13:16,480
I mean, the Green New Deal, I think,

298
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,229
has really put on people's radar that,

299
00:13:20,229 --> 00:13:22,580
like, yeah, it would actually be better

300
00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:24,100
to not have to drive to work every day.

301
00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:26,890
It would actually be better
to have free public transit.

302
00:13:26,890 --> 00:13:29,400
It would be better if
we had jobs that we knew

303
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,986
were not going to go away as
the energy transition happens.

304
00:13:32,986 --> 00:13:35,123
And I don't think that that means

305
00:13:35,123 --> 00:13:37,740
that any of these
transitions will be easy.

306
00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:39,300
Obviously in this political climate,

307
00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:40,934
there's no way that they will be easy,

308
00:13:40,934 --> 00:13:42,210
but I think that it's really,

309
00:13:42,210 --> 00:13:44,270
really important to have some perspective

310
00:13:44,270 --> 00:13:45,691
and to have political ambition,

311
00:13:45,691 --> 00:13:49,260
to remember what exactly it
is that we're fighting for.

312
00:13:49,260 --> 00:13:52,360
And remember that people are
at the heart of that, right?

313
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:53,960
It's not that the climate
crisis is something

314
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,920
that we have to address as
we address other things,

315
00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,140
or that we have to
address the climate crisis

316
00:13:59,140 --> 00:14:01,710
to save the planet at our own expense.

317
00:14:01,710 --> 00:14:05,308
We are such an integral part
of what we are trying to save.

318
00:14:05,308 --> 00:14:08,050
- That's really interesting,
and myself and Fergus Green

319
00:14:08,050 --> 00:14:09,530
actually have a new paper coming out,

320
00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:13,483
which documents how inequality

321
00:14:13,483 --> 00:14:15,970
actually fuels climate emission.

322
00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:20,970
So there's a moral reason to
address systematic racism,

323
00:14:21,309 --> 00:14:24,619
and inequalities, but there's
also a climate reason,

324
00:14:24,619 --> 00:14:27,460
which is also really interesting.

325
00:14:27,460 --> 00:14:29,020
- I would love to hear more about that.

326
00:14:29,020 --> 00:14:30,140
- [Noel] Yeah, yeah.

327
00:14:30,140 --> 00:14:32,960
It's coming out at the end of the month,

328
00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,443
will certainly share it with you then.

329
00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:38,900
So in Boston at the moment,

330
00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:40,090
it's pretty exciting

331
00:14:40,090 --> 00:14:42,860
'cause we have a green
new dealer as mayor,

332
00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:45,950
so Boston Mayor, Michelle Wu.

333
00:14:45,950 --> 00:14:47,793
She was elected November, 2021,

334
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,450
on the back of a highly detailed
Green New Deal platform.

335
00:14:52,450 --> 00:14:54,330
And her Green New Deal proposal

336
00:14:54,330 --> 00:14:57,630
is arguably one of the
strongest at the city level

337
00:14:58,780 --> 00:15:01,003
of Green New Deals across the US.

338
00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:04,630
What is it like reporting in a city

339
00:15:04,630 --> 00:15:07,030
that has this type of new energy

340
00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:09,600
around a city level Green New Deal,

341
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,430
and maybe if you like
to share some thoughts

342
00:15:12,430 --> 00:15:14,580
on reporting on different elements

343
00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:16,920
of our Green New Deal proposal?

344
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,370
- Yeah, it's been really interesting

345
00:15:18,370 --> 00:15:21,310
to come into The Globe's
new climate bureau

346
00:15:21,310 --> 00:15:24,140
as Mayor Wu came into office.

347
00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:27,840
I mean, obviously we
don't endorse candidates

348
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:28,673
or anything like that,

349
00:15:28,673 --> 00:15:31,070
but I will say that it does
seem that the conversation

350
00:15:31,070 --> 00:15:31,903
has really shifted,

351
00:15:31,903 --> 00:15:36,310
even since she came into
office pretty recently.

352
00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:37,620
It's also been really interesting

353
00:15:37,620 --> 00:15:40,002
to see the sort of
barriers that she's facing

354
00:15:40,002 --> 00:15:42,740
in the agenda that she's trying to set,

355
00:15:42,740 --> 00:15:46,180
the ways that just having a new
mayor doesn't, for instance,

356
00:15:46,180 --> 00:15:47,340
all of a sudden change

357
00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:49,598
how the Department of
Public Utilities works,

358
00:15:49,598 --> 00:15:53,370
or how much of a role
utility companies have

359
00:15:53,370 --> 00:15:56,400
in shaping the energy
transition and things like this.

360
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,270
So definitely, I mean,

361
00:15:58,270 --> 00:16:03,200
I think that having a
city in the United States

362
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,860
where there's such a
high level of ambition,

363
00:16:05,860 --> 00:16:09,400
and especially such a high
level of focus on inequality,

364
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,604
racial inequality, class inequality,

365
00:16:11,604 --> 00:16:16,018
and in a city, obviously
that's not only sort of seen

366
00:16:16,018 --> 00:16:17,270
as a climate leader,

367
00:16:17,270 --> 00:16:19,670
but also is in many ways on the forefront

368
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:21,920
of so many different
kinds of climate changes,

369
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:23,190
whether that's sea level rise,

370
00:16:23,190 --> 00:16:27,660
or heat islands and things
like this has been pretty cool.

371
00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:28,493
Again, though,

372
00:16:28,493 --> 00:16:32,070
I do think that it will be
important to sort of hold anyone

373
00:16:32,070 --> 00:16:34,710
to account as they aim to implement

374
00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:36,060
these kind of bold agendas.

375
00:16:37,075 --> 00:16:39,510
- And yeah, and that kinda brings us on

376
00:16:39,510 --> 00:16:42,750
to the kinda broader
issue around the need for

377
00:16:43,810 --> 00:16:46,930
seismic changes to tactic climate crisis,

378
00:16:46,930 --> 00:16:50,320
and climate journalism can
play a really important role

379
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,060
in drawing attention to
these transformative actions,

380
00:16:53,060 --> 00:16:54,813
to systematic change,

381
00:16:54,813 --> 00:16:57,570
the structural powerships that are needed

382
00:16:57,570 --> 00:16:59,500
to phase on fossil fuels,

383
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:04,500
and limiting climate chaos
necessitates radical actions.

384
00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:07,320
But maybe historically, The New York Times

385
00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,320
and Washington Post and even The Globe

386
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,460
were not where these voices

387
00:17:12,460 --> 00:17:14,940
were traditionally given a platform,

388
00:17:14,940 --> 00:17:17,570
and it's generally more independent media,

389
00:17:17,570 --> 00:17:18,790
whether it's democracy now,

390
00:17:18,790 --> 00:17:21,840
Jacobin Magazine, Truth Out, et cetera,

391
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,820
which truly pushes back
against the status quo,

392
00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:27,850
and discusses solutions
which perhaps don't align

393
00:17:27,850 --> 00:17:31,161
with continued economic growth
or continued militarism,

394
00:17:31,161 --> 00:17:33,760
or moves beyond its preoccupation

395
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,023
with market-based solutions.

396
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,730
Do you think that editors
in major newsrooms

397
00:17:40,730 --> 00:17:43,120
will ever give frequent air time

398
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:46,480
to these so-called radical
stories and voices,

399
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,943
or is there anything
changing in this regard?

400
00:17:51,170 --> 00:17:54,380
- So often I think that editors at papers,

401
00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:57,380
I think that media in
general takes cues from

402
00:17:58,780 --> 00:18:02,010
sort of elite, so to speak, voices,

403
00:18:02,010 --> 00:18:04,800
and I think that those voices
are, in some ways, changing.

404
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,010
I mean obviously the role of a
corporation is to make money,

405
00:18:09,010 --> 00:18:11,350
and that is not going to
change, but there are...

406
00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:13,180
I mean, the fact that, for instance,

407
00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:15,270
the UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres

408
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:20,270
said recently that it's
actually what is radical,

409
00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:25,620
and essentially destructive
is for companies

410
00:18:25,620 --> 00:18:28,689
to continue to grow the
fossil fuel economy,

411
00:18:28,689 --> 00:18:31,700
whereas climate activists
are painted as radicals.

412
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:33,680
I think that that shows
a pretty major shift,

413
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,310
and one that has been
reflected in newsrooms.

414
00:18:37,310 --> 00:18:40,590
I mean, my own personal views, I think...

415
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,390
I have much more of an interest

416
00:18:43,390 --> 00:18:45,441
in public sector solutions,

417
00:18:45,441 --> 00:18:50,140
and much more of an interest
in sort of uplifting justice.

418
00:18:50,140 --> 00:18:51,440
But I do think that, I mean,

419
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,930
I would love to see papers of record.

420
00:18:54,930 --> 00:18:57,020
I would love to see major
sort of mainstream media

421
00:18:57,020 --> 00:18:58,760
take on these debates more often.

422
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,430
I don't think of course
that all of a sudden

423
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:04,840
The New York Times is going to turn

424
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,815
into Jacobin Magazine,
or something like this.

425
00:19:06,815 --> 00:19:09,307
But I think that one thing
I would like to see more of,

426
00:19:09,307 --> 00:19:11,708
and I think one thing that we
are seeing more of, frankly,

427
00:19:11,708 --> 00:19:16,380
is room for kind of debate in the pages

428
00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:18,630
of these papers and
these kinds of magazines.

429
00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:21,580
I think sometimes

430
00:19:21,580 --> 00:19:22,720
it's important to remember

431
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,450
that one can strengthen their
argument by just engaging

432
00:19:27,450 --> 00:19:29,050
with the sort of mainstream argument

433
00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:30,400
that they're fighting against.

434
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,940
It's one thing to ignore or
that argument altogether,

435
00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:34,620
it's another one to sort
of take it on head on

436
00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:36,487
and get in the ring and sort of say,

437
00:19:36,487 --> 00:19:38,100
"This is why you are wrong,

438
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:41,370
and this is why my sort
of line of reasoning

439
00:19:41,370 --> 00:19:44,200
is better for you, or makes more sense,

440
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,640
or aligns with the science
better," or whatever.

441
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,090
So, I hope to see more debate,

442
00:19:49,090 --> 00:19:51,650
and I do think that there
has been a little bit more

443
00:19:51,650 --> 00:19:53,460
of that recent years.

444
00:19:53,460 --> 00:19:55,447
- Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting,

445
00:19:55,447 --> 00:19:56,573
and as I said,

446
00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,640
the climate and energy
community were delighted

447
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,483
when you joined The Boston Globe.

448
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,498
Some of The Boston Globe's coverage

449
00:20:07,498 --> 00:20:11,100
seems to focus a lot on business
and technical innovations,

450
00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:15,817
and this is fairly consistent
with other major news outlets,

451
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,780
but the recent IPCC report, Medicare,

452
00:20:20,780 --> 00:20:21,613
we always need to think

453
00:20:21,613 --> 00:20:24,169
about shifting global
consumption patterns,

454
00:20:24,169 --> 00:20:27,390
and the issue of global
consumption patterns

455
00:20:27,390 --> 00:20:28,690
doesn't sometimes get

456
00:20:31,130 --> 00:20:32,400
enough attention.

457
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,490
Do you see this part of something

458
00:20:34,490 --> 00:20:36,834
that The Globe could address,

459
00:20:36,834 --> 00:20:41,834
or where does The Globe sit on this issue?

460
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:43,730
- Yeah, it's a really good question.

461
00:20:43,730 --> 00:20:46,080
And I mean, I think that there's sort of

462
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:47,530
two different points here, right?

463
00:20:47,530 --> 00:20:51,200
One is the question of green
growth versus de-growth,

464
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,300
and the other is this sort of emphasis

465
00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,700
on market-based corporate solutions.

466
00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:00,250
Obviously, these two things
are intimately related.

467
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:04,490
I mean, I think that media in general,

468
00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:06,420
including sort of major media,

469
00:21:06,420 --> 00:21:09,130
is learning a lot and is
changing very rapidly.

470
00:21:09,130 --> 00:21:12,620
I mean, I came on to
The Globe's climate team

471
00:21:12,620 --> 00:21:15,010
just six months ago, the
climate desk just launched

472
00:21:15,010 --> 00:21:18,210
five months ago or so, and so obviously

473
00:21:18,210 --> 00:21:22,024
I think that we all
know that there's a lot

474
00:21:22,024 --> 00:21:23,660
that can be improved,

475
00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:26,530
and a lot that we can
just frankly do more of.

476
00:21:26,530 --> 00:21:29,080
In terms of whether or not I think that

477
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,570
the sort of corporate
media, mainstream media,

478
00:21:31,570 --> 00:21:34,010
whatever you wanna call
it will take a stance

479
00:21:34,010 --> 00:21:35,830
that goes against growth,

480
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:38,760
I mean, I think that what
I would be looking for,

481
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,090
again, is sort of at least
lifting up other opinions,

482
00:21:43,090 --> 00:21:44,263
dissenting opinions.

483
00:21:46,110 --> 00:21:49,860
And I feel sort of
similarly about the focus

484
00:21:49,860 --> 00:21:53,490
on technological solutions,
market-based solutions,

485
00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:54,323
and things like this.

486
00:21:54,323 --> 00:21:56,450
I mean, I think that it would be...

487
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,940
Do I think that there's
going to all of a sudden

488
00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:02,720
be a shift away from techno-optimism?

489
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,110
No, I don't,

490
00:22:04,110 --> 00:22:06,160
but do I think that
there could be more room

491
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:07,560
in the pages of these papers

492
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,530
for discussions of more sort of

493
00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:12,370
publicly owned renewable energy,

494
00:22:12,370 --> 00:22:17,370
or solutions that prioritize
people over profit?

495
00:22:18,530 --> 00:22:20,390
Yeah, I definitely do, and I think that

496
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:24,970
there's a change that the
science shows needs to happen.

497
00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:26,880
I mean, I think that even like,

498
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,078
if you look at the most recent IPCC report

499
00:22:29,078 --> 00:22:30,780
versus the one before that,

500
00:22:30,780 --> 00:22:32,760
the emphasis on market-based solutions

501
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,410
has dramatically dropped.

502
00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:35,410
I mean, there's still some,

503
00:22:35,410 --> 00:22:37,440
but I think that the emphasis
has dramatically dropped,

504
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,860
and I think that as the science shows

505
00:22:39,860 --> 00:22:43,330
that market-based solutions
often don't really seem

506
00:22:43,330 --> 00:22:45,040
to pan out in terms of

507
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,450
evidence showing that they're working.

508
00:22:47,450 --> 00:22:50,562
Yeah, journalists I think
will kind of see too.

509
00:22:50,562 --> 00:22:52,437
Obviously part of the issue

510
00:22:52,437 --> 00:22:55,810
is the funding models of newspapers.

511
00:22:55,810 --> 00:22:59,920
I think that it's really
important to make sure that

512
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,120
what journalists are able to write

513
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,670
are not compromised by
the funders of newspapers,

514
00:23:05,670 --> 00:23:07,470
and I think that's also a place

515
00:23:07,470 --> 00:23:09,110
where there's a lot of sort
of innovation happening.

516
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:10,190
I'm really excited to see

517
00:23:10,190 --> 00:23:13,440
the rise of so much independent media too.

518
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:14,313
- That's really interesting.

519
00:23:14,313 --> 00:23:16,370
And that kind of brings us on

520
00:23:16,370 --> 00:23:20,999
to another aligned kind of tricky issue

521
00:23:20,999 --> 00:23:24,860
to write about is the
issue of responsibility

522
00:23:26,344 --> 00:23:28,453
for the climate crisis.

523
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,350
BP British Petroleum invented
the phrase carbon footprint

524
00:23:34,350 --> 00:23:37,470
along with this carbon calculator in 2004

525
00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:42,287
as a means to shift blame away
from fossil fuel companies,

526
00:23:42,287 --> 00:23:45,623
but the IPCC also highlights
the need for degrowth.

527
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:52,100
How do you best navigate
this challenge around writing

528
00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:54,330
about the issue of responsibility,

529
00:23:54,330 --> 00:23:57,270
on the one hand, the need
for individual actions,

530
00:23:57,270 --> 00:23:59,380
while at the same time clarifying

531
00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:01,620
the importance of collective actions,

532
00:24:01,620 --> 00:24:06,073
or like political organizing
for mass transit, for example?

533
00:24:07,170 --> 00:24:09,740
- I think one thing that
I've sort of learned

534
00:24:10,580 --> 00:24:14,361
can garner responses from
people other than just

535
00:24:14,361 --> 00:24:16,080
sort of shutting down

536
00:24:16,970 --> 00:24:19,620
is keeping in mind that
so many people do want

537
00:24:19,620 --> 00:24:21,880
to make individual changes,

538
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,010
and that those changes are
simply not easy to make.

539
00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:26,840
I mean, this dichotomy I think

540
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,410
of like individual
versus collective action

541
00:24:30,410 --> 00:24:32,110
is in some ways sort of false,

542
00:24:32,110 --> 00:24:35,550
because what are the things
that shape individual action?

543
00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:36,710
They are government action,

544
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:38,300
they're collective action, right?

545
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:40,780
And so the things that
can sort of set the stage

546
00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:42,050
for people to make better actions,

547
00:24:42,050 --> 00:24:44,990
I think are often what
we need to focus on.

548
00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:46,290
It's one thing to sort of say,

549
00:24:46,290 --> 00:24:49,080
oh, people aren't choosing
to drive electric cars.

550
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,436
Okay, well, why?

551
00:24:50,436 --> 00:24:52,570
Often they're way more expensive.

552
00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:54,870
Also, federal rebates and state rebates

553
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:58,380
here in Massachusetts
don't apply to used cars.

554
00:24:58,380 --> 00:25:01,010
Also, there's not enough chargers.

555
00:25:01,010 --> 00:25:03,610
Also, people don't really know always how

556
00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:05,480
to navigate the system of
buying an electric car,

557
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,970
how to navigate rebate programs,

558
00:25:06,970 --> 00:25:10,290
even where to buy or charge
their electric vehicles.

559
00:25:10,290 --> 00:25:14,997
So I think that those are
all really important reasons

560
00:25:14,997 --> 00:25:17,390
that kind of shape the individual choices

561
00:25:17,390 --> 00:25:19,370
that people are making.

562
00:25:19,370 --> 00:25:22,500
Similarly, do people want
to take public transit?

563
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:23,700
I don't know, they would certainly

564
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:26,130
wanna take public transit a
lot more if it were better,

565
00:25:26,130 --> 00:25:27,630
if it were better funded,
if it were cheaper,

566
00:25:27,630 --> 00:25:30,790
if it were easier to take,
if it were more convenient.

567
00:25:30,790 --> 00:25:32,560
And I think that setting
the stage for people

568
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,483
to make really good choices
can be really important.

569
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,720
Obviously I think that policy needs

570
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,263
to shape a world that
is better for people.

571
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:43,860
Do I think that that means all of a sudden

572
00:25:43,860 --> 00:25:45,190
everyone is going to start making

573
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:46,750
super climate-friendly choices?

574
00:25:46,750 --> 00:25:49,060
No, but I'm more interested, I guess,

575
00:25:49,060 --> 00:25:50,710
in what the majority of people are doing.

576
00:25:50,710 --> 00:25:53,020
And frankly, I would
love to live in a world

577
00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:56,420
where it's just more convenient, cheaper,

578
00:25:56,420 --> 00:25:58,790
a better idea for non-climate reasons

579
00:25:58,790 --> 00:26:00,150
for people to behave in ways

580
00:26:00,150 --> 00:26:03,060
that are more environmentally
friendly, quote unquote.

581
00:26:03,060 --> 00:26:05,460
I want climate deniers to also want

582
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:07,610
to take public transit because
it's just a better idea.

583
00:26:07,610 --> 00:26:11,118
I want this sort of stage
to be set for people

584
00:26:11,118 --> 00:26:14,110
to make better choices
because it's simply easier

585
00:26:14,110 --> 00:26:15,800
and cheaper to do so.

586
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,770
- That's an excellent point.

587
00:26:16,770 --> 00:26:19,060
It reminds you when I lived in Munich

588
00:26:19,060 --> 00:26:20,650
on my sabbatical for six months,

589
00:26:20,650 --> 00:26:22,492
I only got in a car once,

590
00:26:22,492 --> 00:26:24,680
just 'cause the public
transportation system

591
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,373
is just so efficient.

592
00:26:28,010 --> 00:26:31,130
So, you did some work with
the "Drilled" podcast,

593
00:26:31,130 --> 00:26:36,130
one of my favorite podcasts,
and like the tobacco industry,

594
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,410
the fossil fuel industry have engaged

595
00:26:39,410 --> 00:26:42,260
in what some writers have coined

596
00:26:42,260 --> 00:26:45,030
the invisible colonization of academia

597
00:26:45,030 --> 00:26:48,420
via corporate capture
of academic research.

598
00:26:48,420 --> 00:26:50,420
And this can often shift the focus

599
00:26:50,420 --> 00:26:52,230
of solutions away from actions,

600
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:57,230
which challenge the business
model of fossil fuel companies.

601
00:26:57,593 --> 00:27:00,730
So I would love to hear
more about your work

602
00:27:00,730 --> 00:27:02,380
with the "Drilled" podcast,

603
00:27:02,380 --> 00:27:07,360
your view on podcasts
as effective mediums,

604
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,490
and more about your thoughts
on fossil fuel industries

605
00:27:11,490 --> 00:27:14,753
influence within education at any level?

606
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,210
- Yeah, to take your
second question first,

607
00:27:20,210 --> 00:27:22,660
the role that podcasts can have,

608
00:27:22,660 --> 00:27:25,240
I worked on the one season
of the "Drilled" podcast,

609
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,590
but you asked earlier
about how climate coverage

610
00:27:28,590 --> 00:27:29,590
can sort of compete

611
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:32,490
with the big sort of
celebrity stories of the day,

612
00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:34,850
the big pop culture stories of the day,

613
00:27:34,850 --> 00:27:37,160
and I think that drilled
is a pretty great example

614
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:37,993
of how they can.

615
00:27:37,993 --> 00:27:41,980
I mean, it's so clear
now that Amy Westervelt

616
00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:43,770
has made the "Drilled" podcast

617
00:27:43,770 --> 00:27:46,868
that climate change is a true crime story,

618
00:27:46,868 --> 00:27:48,980
but it took the podcast, I think,

619
00:27:48,980 --> 00:27:51,580
to really put it in that kind of light,

620
00:27:51,580 --> 00:27:54,910
to really shed perspective
on that aspect of the story.

621
00:27:54,910 --> 00:27:57,390
And so I think that, yeah,
more narrative podcasts,

622
00:27:57,390 --> 00:27:59,760
more narrative stories,
more storytelling in general

623
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,730
on the climate beat can
be really, really useful.

624
00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:07,000
We wanted to focus on role that
the fossil fuel industry has

625
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,000
in shaping education,

626
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,610
and specifically sort of
humanities and social sciences.

627
00:28:12,610 --> 00:28:14,680
I think a lot more has been
sort of written previously

628
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,860
about science education and
climate education specifically

629
00:28:17,860 --> 00:28:22,083
because we thought that it was
a really sort of untold role

630
00:28:22,083 --> 00:28:24,180
that the fossil fuel industry was having

631
00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:26,872
on shaping public discourse
and public opinion.

632
00:28:26,872 --> 00:28:29,460
We were kind of working
on this podcast at a time

633
00:28:29,460 --> 00:28:32,510
when the divestment movement
was really center stage

634
00:28:32,510 --> 00:28:36,310
for so much university
and college organizing.

635
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:39,760
And we were finding that
even as so many schools

636
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,140
were divesting, they were
continuing to take funding

637
00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:44,770
from the fossil fuel industry

638
00:28:45,890 --> 00:28:48,160
to fund things like economics departments

639
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,757
or humanities departments
and things like this.

640
00:28:51,757 --> 00:28:54,360
And Boston is no stranger, right?

641
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,380
To these kind of elite universities

642
00:28:57,380 --> 00:28:58,380
that continue to do this.

643
00:28:58,380 --> 00:29:01,560
I mean the work of
scholars like Ben Franta,

644
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,640
Geoffrey Supran has
shown that Harvard, MIT,

645
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,950
these kinds of major and
highly respected universities

646
00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:10,953
are as guilty of this as anybody.

647
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,210
And colleges and universities
are such an important part

648
00:29:16,210 --> 00:29:18,310
of the climate story,

649
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:20,950
because where is it that
climate research is coming from?

650
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:23,840
Who shapes so much of
the research that's going

651
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,610
into reports like the IPCC report?

652
00:29:25,610 --> 00:29:28,580
I mean, it's major schools
that are often taking funding

653
00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:30,110
from the oil and gas companies

654
00:29:30,110 --> 00:29:32,740
that we know cannot continue to exist

655
00:29:32,740 --> 00:29:35,370
if we're gonna take the
climate crisis seriously.

656
00:29:35,370 --> 00:29:39,600
So, an interesting sort
of time to be working

657
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,220
on this right now, and I'd love to hear,

658
00:29:41,220 --> 00:29:43,100
I guess, from anybody at Salem State

659
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:45,530
who's working on this issue as well.

660
00:29:45,530 --> 00:29:47,300
- Yeah, the one...

661
00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:48,797
We've done lots of good
things at Salem State,

662
00:29:48,797 --> 00:29:52,470
but one that we're most proud of is

663
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:54,640
Salem State divestment from fossil fuels.

664
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:55,500
- [Dharna] Absolutely.

665
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:58,010
- A few years ago now, five
or six years ago, I think,

666
00:29:58,010 --> 00:30:01,140
and that was something that
we viewed as very important

667
00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:05,453
in the ecosystem of actions
that we're doing around climate.

668
00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:09,450
I'd be interested to know
if you have any insights

669
00:30:09,450 --> 00:30:12,370
on how the fossil fuel
industry directly tries

670
00:30:12,370 --> 00:30:16,380
to influence climate narrative
within media circles.

671
00:30:16,380 --> 00:30:18,700
I guess they're tangentially doing this,

672
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:20,180
and in all spheres,

673
00:30:20,180 --> 00:30:25,180
but if you've got any insights to how they

674
00:30:26,970 --> 00:30:28,440
are trying to influence media,

675
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,080
either via direct press releases,

676
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,290
or op-eds, or things like this.

677
00:30:35,290 --> 00:30:37,120
- Yeah, I mean,

678
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,570
sometimes it really is completely direct.

679
00:30:39,570 --> 00:30:42,223
Again, as work done by
scholars like Geoffrey Supran

680
00:30:42,223 --> 00:30:44,860
and Naomi Ruscus has shown,

681
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:48,110
the number of just straight up editorials

682
00:30:48,110 --> 00:30:50,170
from the oil and gas lobby

683
00:30:50,170 --> 00:30:51,970
or oil and gas companies themselves

684
00:30:51,970 --> 00:30:56,793
in the pages of major
newspapers is just absurd.

685
00:30:57,710 --> 00:31:01,930
You have to look no further
than the front page ads

686
00:31:01,930 --> 00:31:04,220
and editorials that are
taken out from time to time

687
00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:06,580
to really see what that influence means.

688
00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:08,300
But I think that this rears
its head in other ways,

689
00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:09,133
right, too.

690
00:31:09,133 --> 00:31:13,850
I mean, I think that the sort
of rise of sponsored content

691
00:31:14,750 --> 00:31:17,816
can make a lot of different
kind of opportunities

692
00:31:17,816 --> 00:31:22,816
for these sorts of unsavory alliances.

693
00:31:23,210 --> 00:31:25,953
I think that there's been
some really important work

694
00:31:25,953 --> 00:31:29,690
done recently on the ways
that the fossil fuel industry

695
00:31:29,690 --> 00:31:31,330
is shaping its advertisements

696
00:31:31,330 --> 00:31:33,320
and media narratives for podcasts,

697
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,640
because podcast ads are
simply less regulated

698
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,280
than ads in other sort of mediums.

699
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,650
And so I think that, I mean, yes, yes,

700
00:31:41,650 --> 00:31:43,640
there is a huge influence there.

701
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,810
One way that I think that we can ensure

702
00:31:46,810 --> 00:31:50,020
that we're still able
to do good work in media

703
00:31:50,020 --> 00:31:53,280
is to enforce that fire
line, that firewall rather

704
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,834
between advertisers and journalists,

705
00:31:56,834 --> 00:31:58,610
but the other way obviously

706
00:31:58,610 --> 00:32:01,110
is to foster more independent media,

707
00:32:01,110 --> 00:32:03,070
and I think that that's
something that a lot of folks

708
00:32:03,070 --> 00:32:04,929
are working on right now.

709
00:32:04,929 --> 00:32:05,799
- [Noel] Yeah.

710
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:08,180
Yeah, I mean the fossil fuel industry

711
00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:10,023
have their tentacles everywhere.

712
00:32:11,260 --> 00:32:13,590
So this brings on to a new subject

713
00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:16,360
when thinking about
impacts of climate change

714
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:17,300
in the global south,

715
00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:21,240
so climate change disproportionately
impacts or effects

716
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,780
the most vulnerable
populations in the world,

717
00:32:23,780 --> 00:32:25,720
particularly those in the global south,

718
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,210
yet their stories are rarely heard,

719
00:32:28,210 --> 00:32:30,690
or they're given less emphasis.

720
00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:33,770
What can the media do to better

721
00:32:33,770 --> 00:32:37,080
to amplify these voices and stories,

722
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,530
and is there an appetite
for climate justice stories

723
00:32:40,530 --> 00:32:44,183
which extend beyond the borders of the US?

724
00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:48,460
- There has to be an appetite for it.

725
00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:51,480
I mean, there are definitely some evidence

726
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,180
that shows rather depressingly

727
00:32:53,180 --> 00:32:58,040
that people are more
interested in the issues

728
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,380
that affect their own life lives,

729
00:32:59,380 --> 00:33:01,881
and are really disinterested
in climate issues

730
00:33:01,881 --> 00:33:04,800
that face other parts of the world.

731
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,100
But I mean, when it
comes down to it, like...

732
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:10,390
In not too long,

733
00:33:10,390 --> 00:33:12,850
every zone is going to be
a frontline zone, right?

734
00:33:12,850 --> 00:33:16,470
In not too long, all of us are
gonna be on the front lines,

735
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:18,590
perhaps with the exception for a while

736
00:33:18,590 --> 00:33:22,853
of the extremely rich, of
those who own the most capital.

737
00:33:23,770 --> 00:33:26,530
But that's not most of people
who we're writing for, right?

738
00:33:26,530 --> 00:33:30,700
Most people are not the
sort of corporate overlords

739
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:32,300
of the world.

740
00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:35,540
So, I mean, is there an appetite?

741
00:33:35,540 --> 00:33:37,650
There has to be, I mean, I
think that part of the reason

742
00:33:37,650 --> 00:33:39,260
that we have to write these stories

743
00:33:39,260 --> 00:33:40,693
is to foster that appetite,

744
00:33:40,693 --> 00:33:43,870
and not in a way that sort
of puts the global south

745
00:33:43,870 --> 00:33:46,570
in a vacuum, but also
showing the connections

746
00:33:46,570 --> 00:33:50,563
between climate impacts on
the global south and here.

747
00:33:51,610 --> 00:33:54,140
In some ways I think that the
reason that people should care

748
00:33:54,140 --> 00:33:55,660
about what's happening in the global south

749
00:33:55,660 --> 00:33:57,220
is not merely out of altruism,

750
00:33:57,220 --> 00:34:00,160
but because the hurricanes and the floods

751
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,850
that face places like Latin
America and Bangladesh

752
00:34:02,850 --> 00:34:06,850
and Africa today are the ones
that will face us tomorrow

753
00:34:06,850 --> 00:34:08,123
here in the global north.

754
00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:12,530
And obviously this is not to
say that there are not places

755
00:34:12,530 --> 00:34:14,570
that are on the front line here
in the global north as well.

756
00:34:14,570 --> 00:34:17,210
I mean, there are tons of
environmental justice communities

757
00:34:17,210 --> 00:34:18,600
in the United States that are also

758
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,170
not honestly getting the kind
of coverage that they deserve,

759
00:34:22,170 --> 00:34:25,580
but we need to, I think,
remember that just

760
00:34:25,580 --> 00:34:27,470
because we're not on the
front lines of something today

761
00:34:27,470 --> 00:34:29,730
doesn't mean that we're safe.

762
00:34:29,730 --> 00:34:31,817
- [Noel] Yeah, that's really important.

763
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,290
I have a selfie question.

764
00:34:36,290 --> 00:34:38,047
How do you write so fast?

765
00:34:38,047 --> 00:34:39,410
(Noel chuckling)

766
00:34:39,410 --> 00:34:42,610
'Cause I remember when
you interviewed me for

767
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:46,470
the paper on how you pay
for the Green New Deal,

768
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:48,090
we had email exchange,

769
00:34:48,090 --> 00:34:51,022
and in an hour you had the
story up and I was like,

770
00:34:51,022 --> 00:34:53,170
how did you do this?

771
00:34:53,170 --> 00:34:54,230
You know, academics?

772
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:56,450
Well, certainly me, I'm a slow writer,

773
00:34:56,450 --> 00:34:59,400
but we'll have some people
tuning in who are interested

774
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,410
in climate journalism
or writing in general.

775
00:35:03,410 --> 00:35:06,890
Have you got any tips on
how you or other journalists

776
00:35:08,027 --> 00:35:10,920
write fast?

777
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,973
- It's such a good question.

778
00:35:12,973 --> 00:35:17,110
I mean, I have to say that

779
00:35:17,110 --> 00:35:20,250
there's always more to be said, right?

780
00:35:20,250 --> 00:35:21,660
Part of the way that you write fast

781
00:35:21,660 --> 00:35:22,660
is that you just remember

782
00:35:22,660 --> 00:35:25,163
that there's gonna be
another story tomorrow,

783
00:35:26,020 --> 00:35:29,130
and so not trying to fit
everything into every story

784
00:35:29,130 --> 00:35:30,540
that you write can be really important,

785
00:35:30,540 --> 00:35:32,780
and also sometimes is
honestly really heartbreaking.

786
00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:34,950
I mean, there's so many times,

787
00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:37,827
like every week I write
a story and I'll think,

788
00:35:37,827 --> 00:35:38,830
"Oh, this isn't even getting

789
00:35:38,830 --> 00:35:40,890
to this other really
important part of this topic

790
00:35:40,890 --> 00:35:42,352
that I'm writing about,"

791
00:35:42,352 --> 00:35:44,390
and I'll just have to be okay with that,

792
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:46,080
and try to address it in the story

793
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,210
that I write the next week.

794
00:35:48,210 --> 00:35:51,080
I think that one really
important way to sort of learn

795
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,980
to write faster is to have a
beat and to really foster it,

796
00:35:54,980 --> 00:35:57,100
having sources, having
regular conversations

797
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:59,870
with people like you, or with organizers,

798
00:35:59,870 --> 00:36:01,970
or folks who are directly affected

799
00:36:01,970 --> 00:36:05,040
by things like hurricanes
and floods and heat waves,

800
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:06,970
knowing who to talk to before you even

801
00:36:06,970 --> 00:36:08,010
know what the story is,

802
00:36:08,010 --> 00:36:09,750
like knowing when a heat wave happens,

803
00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:11,280
that you can call this scientist,

804
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,109
this organizer, and this place,

805
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:16,770
and this policy maker can
be a really important way

806
00:36:16,770 --> 00:36:18,740
to get things done quickly.

807
00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:20,160
But honestly, this is
something that I feel

808
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,640
that I'm still working on every day.

809
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,630
I think that we're always told
that we need to write more,

810
00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:25,793
better, faster,

811
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:28,163
and sometimes I don't think

812
00:36:28,163 --> 00:36:29,520
that we can do all of those things.

813
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,520
Sometimes I really think
that it's actually important

814
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,600
for journalists, especially
journalists on a beat

815
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,006
as important as the climate
beat to take a beat, slow down,

816
00:36:37,006 --> 00:36:41,370
think more about the implications
of what's being written.

817
00:36:41,370 --> 00:36:43,070
So that's not to say that getting the news

818
00:36:43,070 --> 00:36:44,710
out there quickly is not important,

819
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:48,080
but also speed is not always
the most important thing.

820
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,960
- And do you view longform
journalism as been

821
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,160
an important part of the
climate reporting as well?

822
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:56,850
- Yes, absolutely.

823
00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:59,570
And not only, I mean,
long form journalism,

824
00:36:59,570 --> 00:37:02,300
op-eds, analysis.

825
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:06,070
I think that all of these sorts
of from short little blogs

826
00:37:06,070 --> 00:37:09,580
to like books the size of the Bible,

827
00:37:09,580 --> 00:37:12,470
I think there's a place
for all of these things.

828
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:15,360
I mean, and the reason
is because climate change

829
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,970
is deeply embedded into every story

830
00:37:18,970 --> 00:37:20,890
is something that people
need to be hearing about

831
00:37:20,890 --> 00:37:24,380
all the time in order to really wake up

832
00:37:24,380 --> 00:37:26,600
to the severity of these issues

833
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,560
in any way that we can
reach people we should,

834
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,410
and that means long
things and short things,

835
00:37:31,410 --> 00:37:33,340
it means lots of facts and data,

836
00:37:33,340 --> 00:37:34,900
and it also means lots of stories

837
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:36,960
and narratives and characters.

838
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,340
It means reading an
op-ed by Bill McKibben,

839
00:37:40,340 --> 00:37:43,470
or an article by Sabrina Shankbender,

840
00:37:43,470 --> 00:37:44,770
David Abel in the Boston Globe,

841
00:37:44,770 --> 00:37:46,760
and it also means reading the editorials

842
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,080
and the pages of Yes
Magazine or Jacobi Magazine.

843
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,350
I think that there needs to be a sort

844
00:37:52,350 --> 00:37:55,070
of really healthy ecosystem in order

845
00:37:55,070 --> 00:37:58,200
for us to get anywhere in climate media.

846
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,290
- Okay, that's great.

847
00:37:59,290 --> 00:38:02,850
So, I think I can switch
it over to Joey now

848
00:38:02,850 --> 00:38:07,850
who's gonna field some questions
from our live audience,

849
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,460
so Joey, if you've got any
questions there for Dharna.

850
00:38:12,460 --> 00:38:14,130
- Yeah, absolutely.

851
00:38:14,130 --> 00:38:15,560
So, for the audience,

852
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,690
feel free to keep typing
in the little chats

853
00:38:17,690 --> 00:38:19,500
in the little module there,

854
00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:21,663
and I will try to answer them as we go.

855
00:38:22,530 --> 00:38:25,067
All right, so first question,

856
00:38:25,067 --> 00:38:27,160
we touched on this a little bit earlier,

857
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,740
but well, why don't we just
reiterate it a little bit?

858
00:38:30,740 --> 00:38:33,620
The Globe often seems to take
a pro-business, pro-growth,

859
00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:35,600
almost booster-ish agenda.

860
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,070
Do you find a conflict with
trying to report seriously

861
00:38:38,070 --> 00:38:39,350
on climate issues in ways

862
00:38:39,350 --> 00:38:42,003
that might conflict
with The Globe's agenda?

863
00:38:43,193 --> 00:38:44,290
- I mean, I have to say,

864
00:38:44,290 --> 00:38:46,770
like I haven't been at
the Globe for very long,

865
00:38:46,770 --> 00:38:49,350
but the mandate that we
have at, "Into the Red,"

866
00:38:49,350 --> 00:38:52,120
the climate section
that I was sort of there

867
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,986
for the launch of

868
00:38:53,986 --> 00:38:56,680
is pretty squarely in line, I think,

869
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,500
with what the climate crisis demands.

870
00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:01,440
I mean, it's a section of the paper

871
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,920
that's so heavily focused
on accountability,

872
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,700
more work to be done on justice of course,

873
00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:09,057
but there's been a focus on justice,

874
00:39:09,057 --> 00:39:13,315
a focus on sort of uplifting
all kinds of solutions,

875
00:39:13,315 --> 00:39:16,015
not to say that I think that we need

876
00:39:16,015 --> 00:39:20,930
to like put all of our focus
onto technological solutions,

877
00:39:20,930 --> 00:39:24,170
but I do think quite
frankly that we do need

878
00:39:24,170 --> 00:39:28,720
to spend some time looking
at burgeoning technologies

879
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:31,620
along with sort of everything else.

880
00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:35,590
So the answer for me is no.

881
00:39:35,590 --> 00:39:37,730
Does that mean I think that The Globe

882
00:39:37,730 --> 00:39:39,060
doesn't have more work to do

883
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:40,980
in order to sort of take on this problem

884
00:39:40,980 --> 00:39:42,120
with the scale that it deserves?

885
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,370
Absolutely, but I think
that everyone, frankly,

886
00:39:44,370 --> 00:39:46,470
has more work to do.

887
00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:47,770
Yes, I think of course,

888
00:39:47,770 --> 00:39:50,470
especially the sort of
major newspapers bear

889
00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:51,893
even more responsibility.

890
00:39:51,893 --> 00:39:56,050
Bigger institutions always
bear a greater responsibility,

891
00:39:56,050 --> 00:40:00,170
but I would love to talk
more if you wanna contact me

892
00:40:00,170 --> 00:40:02,460
about specific instances.

893
00:40:02,460 --> 00:40:04,830
Yeah, always happy to chat further.

894
00:40:04,830 --> 00:40:06,080
- [Joey] Awesome.

895
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,270
All right, next question we have here.

896
00:40:08,270 --> 00:40:09,970
This is a bit of a bit of an EJ

897
00:40:09,970 --> 00:40:11,893
distributed justice kind of question.

898
00:40:12,750 --> 00:40:15,390
Do you think the future
expansion of offshore wind energy

899
00:40:15,390 --> 00:40:17,760
may create a disparity
between Green New Deal plans

900
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,013
for coastal regions versus inland regions?

901
00:40:22,570 --> 00:40:25,500
- I mean, the basic answer to this

902
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:29,690
is that I think that without
careful attention to justice,

903
00:40:30,810 --> 00:40:33,580
anything can create injustice,

904
00:40:33,580 --> 00:40:35,723
and so I do think that it's possible.

905
00:40:37,330 --> 00:40:39,650
I don't think that there's
any reason that off-shore

906
00:40:39,650 --> 00:40:42,333
wind should not be beneficial
to inland regions though.

907
00:40:42,333 --> 00:40:45,170
I mean, I think that
you asked earlier, Noel,

908
00:40:45,170 --> 00:40:46,860
about things that are undercovered,

909
00:40:46,860 --> 00:40:49,645
I think that we simply need more coverage

910
00:40:49,645 --> 00:40:52,870
in media about the need for transmission.

911
00:40:52,870 --> 00:40:55,430
Having the big flashy
energy project is one thing,

912
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:57,820
distributing that energy
to all kinds of people

913
00:40:57,820 --> 00:41:00,600
in all kinds of regions is another thing.

914
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,500
So, no, I certainly don't
think that it has to,

915
00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:04,370
but also we need distributed energy,

916
00:41:04,370 --> 00:41:06,670
and we need energy from
all kinds of sources

917
00:41:06,670 --> 00:41:09,060
if we're gonna get off of fossil fuels.

918
00:41:09,060 --> 00:41:11,380
And that means that yes, some
people are gonna have a grid

919
00:41:11,380 --> 00:41:13,440
that's powered by offshore wind.

920
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:14,990
Sometimes people are gonna have a grid

921
00:41:14,990 --> 00:41:17,110
that's powered by solar,

922
00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:21,830
or some people are gonna be
running their homes off of

923
00:41:22,750 --> 00:41:24,670
maybe hydropower or geothermal,

924
00:41:24,670 --> 00:41:25,940
there's lots of different kinds of energy

925
00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:27,110
that we're gonna need.

926
00:41:27,110 --> 00:41:29,100
But the main question
is how we are getting it

927
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:32,720
to people from the power
plants, from the wind farms,

928
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:35,160
from the solar panels, et cetera.

929
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:36,700
And so, yes, I think,

930
00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:39,760
yes, of course it could, but
there's no reason it has to.

931
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,010
- [Joey] Awesome.

932
00:41:41,010 --> 00:41:43,940
All right, I have some
questions here that I wrote.

933
00:41:43,940 --> 00:41:47,193
So for journalism students who
will watch this, and myself,

934
00:41:48,110 --> 00:41:50,670
what was your journey breaking
into climate journalism,

935
00:41:50,670 --> 00:41:51,730
and what advice do you have

936
00:41:51,730 --> 00:41:53,380
for aspiring climate journalists?

937
00:41:54,790 --> 00:41:57,240
- My journey into climate
journalism I think

938
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,270
was sort of unorthodox,

939
00:41:59,270 --> 00:42:00,540
but I think that that's actually the case

940
00:42:00,540 --> 00:42:02,610
for a lot of climate journalists.

941
00:42:02,610 --> 00:42:07,610
So I started working in
media shortly after college,

942
00:42:07,740 --> 00:42:10,680
mostly just because I wanted
to work at an organization

943
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,040
that aligned with my values.

944
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,580
I didn't really care
about being a journalist,

945
00:42:14,580 --> 00:42:18,940
I cared about not having an
evil boss who I hated, honestly.

946
00:42:18,940 --> 00:42:21,770
So I found myself working
at The Real News Network

947
00:42:21,770 --> 00:42:23,990
in a sort of general producer role,

948
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:27,920
and there I was covering
and doing research on

949
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,960
and doing interviews on everything

950
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,670
from like economic justice in Cuba,

951
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:36,623
to like gender justice
here in the United States,

952
00:42:37,470 --> 00:42:41,270
abortion and food stamps
and every kind of sort of

953
00:42:41,270 --> 00:42:43,770
justice-oriented issue, I wanted to cover,

954
00:42:43,770 --> 00:42:45,465
and started realizing really
quickly that everything

955
00:42:45,465 --> 00:42:47,070
that I cared about so deeply

956
00:42:47,070 --> 00:42:49,963
was deeply affected by
climate change and vice versa.

957
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:52,680
This was around the time, for instance,

958
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,530
that there was a US led invasion of Syria,

959
00:42:55,530 --> 00:42:58,090
and I found myself so
frustrated that there

960
00:42:58,090 --> 00:43:02,340
was so little coverage of the
ways that the climate crisis

961
00:43:02,340 --> 00:43:04,023
was exacerbating these issues.

962
00:43:05,390 --> 00:43:08,470
I would do stories on the sort

963
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:11,620
of military industrial complex,
and find myself, again,

964
00:43:11,620 --> 00:43:13,700
frustrated that so few people were writing

965
00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:16,655
about the ways that the
military fuels climate change,

966
00:43:16,655 --> 00:43:19,400
the way that the Pentagon
fuels climate change,

967
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,456
and that other countries
militaries do too,

968
00:43:22,456 --> 00:43:25,700
and I think that is sort
of how I found myself

969
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:26,700
onto the climate beat.

970
00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:29,360
It wasn't really that I
found myself to be such a

971
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,210
granola crunchy hippie,
or something like this,

972
00:43:33,210 --> 00:43:36,220
although not that that's so far from it,

973
00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:38,590
but it was really just that
I found that climate change

974
00:43:38,590 --> 00:43:40,480
was such a deep existential threat,

975
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:41,313
and one that was gonna exacerbate

976
00:43:41,313 --> 00:43:43,630
so many issues that I already cared about.

977
00:43:43,630 --> 00:43:47,134
And so, I mean, I guess my
advice would just be like,

978
00:43:47,134 --> 00:43:52,134
if you wanna be a journalist,
and you care about society,

979
00:43:52,140 --> 00:43:54,740
frankly, the climate
beat is a beat for you.

980
00:43:54,740 --> 00:43:56,800
I mean, if you wanna do
accountability stories,

981
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:57,830
come to the climate beat.

982
00:43:57,830 --> 00:44:00,550
If you wanna do culture stories,
come to the climate beat.

983
00:44:00,550 --> 00:44:03,070
There are so many movies and TV shows

984
00:44:03,070 --> 00:44:05,210
and books and everything

985
00:44:05,210 --> 00:44:07,120
that are about climate change today.

986
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:08,450
The climate beat is a beat

987
00:44:08,450 --> 00:44:10,450
for every different kind of story,

988
00:44:10,450 --> 00:44:12,010
and so, yeah, it can be daunting,

989
00:44:12,010 --> 00:44:14,220
but hit me up if I can ever help.

990
00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:15,365
- I will.

991
00:44:15,365 --> 00:44:16,960
(Joey chuckling)

992
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,530
All right, here we have
another question in chat.

993
00:44:19,530 --> 00:44:21,730
Massachusetts economy is so dependent

994
00:44:21,730 --> 00:44:23,370
on the military industry.

995
00:44:23,370 --> 00:44:25,400
Can The Globe report on the relationship

996
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,580
of this to climate issues?

997
00:44:27,580 --> 00:44:29,350
- Yeah, one of the first actually pieces

998
00:44:29,350 --> 00:44:31,030
that I got to do at The Boston Globe

999
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:34,360
was the story about how the
military fuels climate change,

1000
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,420
and how there's been
so many exemptions made

1001
00:44:37,420 --> 00:44:41,600
for the military in climate
policies dating back decades,

1002
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,220
but continuing today in
the Biden administration.

1003
00:44:44,220 --> 00:44:45,320
And yes, I mean,

1004
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,760
I think that the fact
that Massachusetts economy

1005
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,340
is so deeply entwined with this,

1006
00:44:50,340 --> 00:44:53,770
I mean the home to companies like Raytheon

1007
00:44:53,770 --> 00:44:56,080
can pose some pretty serious problems.

1008
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,750
And not only like the
military industrial complex,

1009
00:44:58,750 --> 00:45:00,030
I mean, we're seeing, I think,

1010
00:45:00,030 --> 00:45:01,410
similar sort of questions crop up

1011
00:45:01,410 --> 00:45:05,310
with the burgeoning cryptocurrency
industry, and others.

1012
00:45:05,310 --> 00:45:07,590
But I think that the reason
that the military kind

1013
00:45:07,590 --> 00:45:11,260
of plays such an important
and understudied role in this,

1014
00:45:11,260 --> 00:45:14,010
is because so frequently
we're taught to think

1015
00:45:14,010 --> 00:45:16,160
of climate change as a
national security issue,

1016
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,870
not a safety issue.

1017
00:45:17,870 --> 00:45:21,050
So often climate policy has been a reason

1018
00:45:21,050 --> 00:45:24,090
to just give more money to the Pentagon

1019
00:45:24,090 --> 00:45:25,860
and to the Pentagon's contractors.

1020
00:45:25,860 --> 00:45:29,060
And I hope, yes, that we
can shed light on that.

1021
00:45:29,060 --> 00:45:31,510
Again, if you wanna talk,
feel free to hit me up.

1022
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,840
- I had a guy one time in a
class try to convince me that

1023
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,690
Raytheon was a really sustainable company

1024
00:45:37,690 --> 00:45:39,570
because they made the most fuel efficient

1025
00:45:39,570 --> 00:45:41,200
jet engine in the world.

1026
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,900
And I was like, "Well, I
think that misses the point,"

1027
00:45:44,990 --> 00:45:48,220
but yeah, definitely good to
keep exposing things like this,

1028
00:45:48,220 --> 00:45:50,310
especially in a state like Massachusetts,

1029
00:45:50,310 --> 00:45:52,360
that rely so heavily on these industries.

1030
00:45:53,620 --> 00:45:55,260
All right, here's another question.

1031
00:45:55,260 --> 00:45:58,110
As journalism moves more
and more into newsletters,

1032
00:45:58,110 --> 00:46:01,220
substack, podcasts, and
other nontraditional mediums,

1033
00:46:01,220 --> 00:46:03,020
do you think these
mediums are as effective

1034
00:46:03,020 --> 00:46:05,630
or maybe even more effective
than standard verticals

1035
00:46:05,630 --> 00:46:07,373
for getting out climate messages?

1036
00:46:09,830 --> 00:46:12,130
- There are two different
ways to answer this.

1037
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:17,600
I think that any kind of
medium that can get people

1038
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,595
to watch and can be a vehicle
for truth is a good one,

1039
00:46:21,595 --> 00:46:24,860
and so I think that there
are people in new media

1040
00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:27,419
who are doing work that is as important

1041
00:46:27,419 --> 00:46:32,060
in the climate space as the
folks who covered these issues

1042
00:46:32,060 --> 00:46:34,550
in the sort of newspapers
of traditional media

1043
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:36,422
and things like this.

1044
00:46:36,422 --> 00:46:39,050
That said, the thing that does worry me

1045
00:46:39,050 --> 00:46:42,040
is that because these are
burgeoning industries,

1046
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,783
media is right now, largely an industry,

1047
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,660
I get nervous about the
ways that this can open room

1048
00:46:49,660 --> 00:46:51,320
for less regulation.

1049
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,810
A good example of this
that I mentioned earlier

1050
00:46:53,810 --> 00:46:57,500
is that there are fewer
rules and regulations

1051
00:46:57,500 --> 00:47:00,285
for the kinds of advertising
that can be done on podcasts,

1052
00:47:00,285 --> 00:47:02,190
and I think that that can
open the way for lots of kind

1053
00:47:02,190 --> 00:47:03,630
of dangerous fossil fuel messaging

1054
00:47:03,630 --> 00:47:08,380
that might not meet the standards
of older media platforms.

1055
00:47:08,380 --> 00:47:09,410
And so, I mean,

1056
00:47:09,410 --> 00:47:12,360
I think that with any
sort of new innovation,

1057
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,962
there are questions that
have to be asked out how

1058
00:47:15,962 --> 00:47:19,470
to ensure that they
are properly regulated,

1059
00:47:19,470 --> 00:47:22,603
and are honest and accountable.

1060
00:47:24,060 --> 00:47:25,400
But yes, I mean,

1061
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,050
I listen to podcasts all the time,

1062
00:47:27,050 --> 00:47:28,130
and I read tons of newsletters,

1063
00:47:28,130 --> 00:47:31,463
and there's people doing great
work in all of these spaces.

1064
00:47:32,430 --> 00:47:33,870
- Yeah, and it's really interesting

1065
00:47:33,870 --> 00:47:34,940
that you brought up regulation,

1066
00:47:34,940 --> 00:47:38,120
'cause I think about that every
time I see those obnoxious

1067
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,300
Exxon Mobile algae biofuel ads

1068
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:45,283
that seem to go everywhere
from like TikTok to podcasts.

1069
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,403
All right, here is another question.

1070
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,560
How can we learn more about
the power of the lobbyists

1071
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,530
and the legislature

1072
00:47:52,530 --> 00:47:55,010
and in the executive
offices in Massachusetts,

1073
00:47:55,010 --> 00:47:56,170
as well as in DC?

1074
00:47:56,170 --> 00:47:59,350
So what kind of sources of
information would you recommend

1075
00:47:59,350 --> 00:48:01,533
for citizens to use to educate themselves?

1076
00:48:03,505 --> 00:48:05,980
- I mean, to learn more
about the lobbyists, I think,

1077
00:48:05,980 --> 00:48:07,420
honestly you just...

1078
00:48:10,550 --> 00:48:12,290
I wanna say that you
should read the reporting

1079
00:48:12,290 --> 00:48:14,230
on this issue, but in order to do that,

1080
00:48:14,230 --> 00:48:16,550
there also needs to be more of it.

1081
00:48:16,550 --> 00:48:19,310
So part of how I think
you should learn more

1082
00:48:19,310 --> 00:48:20,337
is to reach out to journalists

1083
00:48:20,337 --> 00:48:22,380
who you wanna hear covering these things,

1084
00:48:22,380 --> 00:48:23,213
and just say like,

1085
00:48:23,213 --> 00:48:25,677
"Hey, here's what you should be covering."

1086
00:48:26,670 --> 00:48:29,260
I mean, in order to stay
sort of up to date though

1087
00:48:29,260 --> 00:48:31,893
on what you need to know in terms of your

1088
00:48:31,893 --> 00:48:34,380
sort of state and federal...

1089
00:48:34,380 --> 00:48:36,560
the influence of some of your
state and federal lobbyists,

1090
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,160
there's some really important resources.

1091
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,560
Open Secrets is one,
Influence Map is another.

1092
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,710
There's sort of watchdogs
that are keeping tabs

1093
00:48:45,710 --> 00:48:49,010
on the influence that these
kinds of bodies can have,

1094
00:48:49,010 --> 00:48:50,710
so those are two places to start looking

1095
00:48:50,710 --> 00:48:52,480
and there's plenty of others.

1096
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:53,330
- [Joey] Awesome.

1097
00:48:54,250 --> 00:48:56,160
All right, how about

1098
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,030
who are your favorite climate journalists?

1099
00:48:58,030 --> 00:49:00,240
I can assume Amy Westervelt
because of "Drilled,"

1100
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:01,853
but who else?

1101
00:49:03,500 --> 00:49:05,030
- I mean, I...

1102
00:49:06,970 --> 00:49:08,130
This is such a hard question,

1103
00:49:08,130 --> 00:49:09,330
'cause there's so many different people

1104
00:49:09,330 --> 00:49:10,610
who are doing such good work

1105
00:49:10,610 --> 00:49:13,514
in the realm of both journalism

1106
00:49:13,514 --> 00:49:18,443
and sort of other kinds
of climate writing.

1107
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:22,140
In terms of sort of
larger media platforms,

1108
00:49:22,140 --> 00:49:24,450
I think one person who's
really worth reading

1109
00:49:24,450 --> 00:49:26,190
and getting familiar with is Alex Kaufman

1110
00:49:26,190 --> 00:49:27,393
at The Huffington Post.

1111
00:49:28,574 --> 00:49:31,570
I've heard a lot of
interest in sort of bringing

1112
00:49:32,588 --> 00:49:35,360
a sort of more real stick perspectives

1113
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:36,460
to bigger media outlets,

1114
00:49:36,460 --> 00:49:39,860
and I think that he's
really done that job there,

1115
00:49:39,860 --> 00:49:42,590
and that's a pretty
important place to look.

1116
00:49:42,590 --> 00:49:44,540
I also read tons of smaller

1117
00:49:44,540 --> 00:49:47,570
and sort of independent media outlets,

1118
00:49:47,570 --> 00:49:50,521
and love the work of
folks like Kate Aronoff

1119
00:49:50,521 --> 00:49:52,830
at The New Republic

1120
00:49:52,830 --> 00:49:55,240
who wrote a really
incredible book last year

1121
00:49:56,738 --> 00:49:59,270
that I'd recommend everyone reads.

1122
00:49:59,270 --> 00:50:01,290
There's sort of regional publications,

1123
00:50:01,290 --> 00:50:03,390
publications like Southerly and Scalawag

1124
00:50:03,390 --> 00:50:05,516
that focus on the south.

1125
00:50:05,516 --> 00:50:10,516
In terms of sort of other
essays and other forms of media,

1126
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,033
Mary Heglar, who hosts another
podcast with Amy Westervelt,

1127
00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:18,450
has done really important work.

1128
00:50:18,450 --> 00:50:22,000
And then I hate to just plug like this,

1129
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:23,106
but I would be really,

1130
00:50:23,106 --> 00:50:26,170
it would be wrong of me to
not just say also that like,

1131
00:50:26,170 --> 00:50:29,090
there's bigger papers who are
doing really incredible work

1132
00:50:29,090 --> 00:50:30,233
in this space too.

1133
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:34,230
Whether that's some of the
sort of climate solutions

1134
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:36,777
reporting that's done
in places like The Post,

1135
00:50:36,777 --> 00:50:39,856
or the new vertical
that we've just launched

1136
00:50:39,856 --> 00:50:41,329
at the Boston Globe,

1137
00:50:41,329 --> 00:50:44,590
where folks like Sabrina
Shankman are, I think,

1138
00:50:44,590 --> 00:50:47,590
doing a lot to hold bodies
like the governor's office

1139
00:50:47,590 --> 00:50:49,540
and utilities accountable
for the climate plans

1140
00:50:49,540 --> 00:50:53,080
they've said that they would
implement are really important.

1141
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:54,490
But I feel, honestly,

1142
00:50:54,490 --> 00:50:57,960
like I could just answer this
question for like two hours,

1143
00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:58,910
so I'll stop there,

1144
00:50:58,910 --> 00:51:01,460
but there's lots of folks
doing really good work.

1145
00:51:01,460 --> 00:51:03,240
- Awesome, I know I love "Hot Take"

1146
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:08,240
with Mary Heglar and Amy,
such a hilarious podcast.

1147
00:51:08,410 --> 00:51:09,293
- [Dharna] For sure.

1148
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,010
- All right, here's kind
of an overview question.

1149
00:51:14,270 --> 00:51:16,973
What makes good versus
bad climate journalism?

1150
00:51:17,916 --> 00:51:18,749
I know that's kind of general,

1151
00:51:18,749 --> 00:51:20,779
but what are like the top things,

1152
00:51:20,779 --> 00:51:23,793
the top criteria you try
to accomplish when writing?

1153
00:51:27,390 --> 00:51:31,050
- One thing that I think
is helpful to remember

1154
00:51:31,050 --> 00:51:32,900
is that you can strike a balance.

1155
00:51:32,900 --> 00:51:37,270
You can not lie to people about
the urgency of these issues,

1156
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:39,693
but also not fall into
unnecessary doomerism.

1157
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,780
It is not good journalism to pretend that

1158
00:51:45,952 --> 00:51:48,110
the climate crisis is not dire.

1159
00:51:48,110 --> 00:51:49,587
It's not good journalism to pretend that

1160
00:51:49,587 --> 00:51:50,870
the climate crisis is something

1161
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:52,440
we don't have to worry about yet,

1162
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,020
something that is for next
year, not to worry about now.

1163
00:51:56,020 --> 00:51:59,270
It's not good climate
journalism also to fall

1164
00:51:59,270 --> 00:52:01,500
into this sort of trap of doom and gloom,

1165
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:04,212
and not allow people to remember

1166
00:52:04,212 --> 00:52:07,550
that there are still things
that we can do right now

1167
00:52:07,550 --> 00:52:09,710
that will dramatically
slow climate change,

1168
00:52:09,710 --> 00:52:12,163
and frankly save many,
many people's lives.

1169
00:52:13,010 --> 00:52:16,780
I think that also bad journalism falls

1170
00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:21,440
into the tropes of like blank or nothing.

1171
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,470
I think that it doesn't help
that bodies like the IPCC,

1172
00:52:25,470 --> 00:52:26,640
for good reason,

1173
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,930
focus on numbers like
1.5 or 2 degrees Celsius.

1174
00:52:30,930 --> 00:52:35,150
1.5 degrees Celsius is a
really important target,

1175
00:52:35,150 --> 00:52:36,400
one that if we cross,

1176
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,360
we will see catastrophic
levels of warming,

1177
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,280
but that doesn't mean that
1.39 is gonna be great,

1178
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,560
and it doesn't mean that 1.51

1179
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,710
is gonna be catastrophically
worse than 1.5, right?

1180
00:52:46,710 --> 00:52:48,380
These are just benchmarks.

1181
00:52:48,380 --> 00:52:50,790
They are not themselves the goal.

1182
00:52:50,790 --> 00:52:53,489
And so I think that something
that's really important

1183
00:52:53,489 --> 00:52:56,250
is to remember that
journalism as a vehicle

1184
00:52:56,250 --> 00:52:59,730
for these kinds of facts
needs to keep in mind

1185
00:52:59,730 --> 00:53:01,220
what's underneath these facts.

1186
00:53:01,220 --> 00:53:05,350
1.5 is both a really,
really important measure,

1187
00:53:05,350 --> 00:53:07,739
and also a really arbitrary one.

1188
00:53:07,739 --> 00:53:11,780
And also I think bad climate
journalism is boring,

1189
00:53:11,780 --> 00:53:14,690
and not engaging, and poorly written,

1190
00:53:14,690 --> 00:53:16,890
and doesn't make anyone wanna read it.

1191
00:53:16,890 --> 00:53:20,120
Good climate journalism
often focuses on people,

1192
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:25,040
is engaging, and makes people
want to come back for more.

1193
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,600
You can shake people up
and really move people

1194
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,620
without making it so that people just want

1195
00:53:29,620 --> 00:53:31,683
to crawl into a hole and never come out.

1196
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:34,130
- Yeah, absolutely.

1197
00:53:34,130 --> 00:53:36,220
I think of Emily Akin and "HEATED"

1198
00:53:36,220 --> 00:53:38,630
when I think of that type
of climate journalism

1199
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:40,220
that's both realistic,

1200
00:53:40,220 --> 00:53:42,150
but also kind of punky and irreverent,

1201
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:44,680
so it gets people coming back for more.

1202
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:46,210
- Absolutely.
- Professor Healy,

1203
00:53:46,210 --> 00:53:47,880
I will pass it off to you

1204
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,610
now that we're sort of coming to the end.

1205
00:53:50,610 --> 00:53:54,013
- Yeah, so just one last
kind of related question,

1206
00:53:55,140 --> 00:53:57,910
professors and general
members of the public

1207
00:53:57,910 --> 00:54:00,190
often would like to write op-eds

1208
00:54:00,190 --> 00:54:02,980
and submit 'em to major newspapers.

1209
00:54:02,980 --> 00:54:04,340
But as we all know,

1210
00:54:04,340 --> 00:54:07,577
getting op-eds place is quite challenging

1211
00:54:07,577 --> 00:54:08,840
for various reasons,

1212
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,610
either your writing isn't up to scratch,

1213
00:54:10,610 --> 00:54:14,180
or the message doesn't
resonate with the editors.

1214
00:54:14,180 --> 00:54:16,400
Have you got any kind of general tips

1215
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,727
for members of the public
or Salem State community

1216
00:54:19,727 --> 00:54:21,460
and in writing op-eds,

1217
00:54:21,460 --> 00:54:26,110
and how to go about that.

1218
00:54:27,590 --> 00:54:31,864
- Know what your hook is before
you even pitch the story,

1219
00:54:31,864 --> 00:54:34,210
I think is a really important one.

1220
00:54:34,210 --> 00:54:36,640
In some ways, I hate giving
this advice to people

1221
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:37,920
because there shouldn't have

1222
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,167
to be a hook for climate change.

1223
00:54:40,167 --> 00:54:44,244
There's always some horrible
climate impact happening

1224
00:54:44,244 --> 00:54:47,820
in many different places at the same time.

1225
00:54:47,820 --> 00:54:50,780
At any point in time, there
are like 5 million hooks,

1226
00:54:50,780 --> 00:54:52,526
and so in some ways you
should just be able to say,

1227
00:54:52,526 --> 00:54:55,620
"Hey, I have something to
say about climate change,"

1228
00:54:55,620 --> 00:54:57,050
but realistically, that is not the thing

1229
00:54:57,050 --> 00:54:58,210
that people are going to read then,

1230
00:54:58,210 --> 00:54:59,390
and so it is not the thing that people

1231
00:54:59,390 --> 00:55:00,490
are gonna commission you to write.

1232
00:55:00,490 --> 00:55:04,152
So I think it's really important
to stay on top of the news,

1233
00:55:04,152 --> 00:55:07,300
stay on top of the current conversation,

1234
00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:10,452
and often the way into that is not just

1235
00:55:10,452 --> 00:55:12,470
looking at climate disasters,

1236
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:15,320
but is looking at other
kinds of climate events

1237
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,640
and being able to tie
them to the climate crisis

1238
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,683
because every story in this
day and age is a climate story.

1239
00:55:21,554 --> 00:55:25,400
I think we've seen really great
examples of this recently,

1240
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,400
where many people are tying
the current war in Ukraine,

1241
00:55:30,490 --> 00:55:33,380
and then this kind of
ensuing energy crisis

1242
00:55:33,380 --> 00:55:36,980
to the need for just
transition to green energy.

1243
00:55:36,980 --> 00:55:38,730
I think that looking outside of things

1244
00:55:38,730 --> 00:55:41,210
that's kind of squarely fall
within the climate beat,

1245
00:55:41,210 --> 00:55:44,000
so to speak, and thinking
about climate change

1246
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,520
a little bit more broadly
can be a really important way

1247
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,363
to think through what
you're going to write.

1248
00:55:51,220 --> 00:55:53,610
I guess honestly, some
other things are just

1249
00:55:53,610 --> 00:55:55,240
don't say too much,

1250
00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:58,930
and make sure that you
know exactly what the point

1251
00:55:58,930 --> 00:56:01,210
that you want to make is
before you start writing.

1252
00:56:01,210 --> 00:56:03,070
I'm saying this not only to all of y'all,

1253
00:56:03,070 --> 00:56:04,080
but also to myself,

1254
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,850
I think that sometimes the
most successful stories

1255
00:56:06,850 --> 00:56:08,347
are ones where you can just say,

1256
00:56:08,347 --> 00:56:10,960
"I need this many words
to make this one point,

1257
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,510
and there are five other points
I could make along the way,

1258
00:56:13,510 --> 00:56:15,160
but instead I'm just gonna focus on saying

1259
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,520
this one thing and saying it really well."

1260
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,270
So getting clear on exactly what it is

1261
00:56:19,270 --> 00:56:20,950
that you're trying to say
before you start writing,

1262
00:56:20,950 --> 00:56:24,540
I think is a pretty good way to approach

1263
00:56:24,540 --> 00:56:27,460
I think something like
an op-ed or an article.

1264
00:56:27,460 --> 00:56:28,990
- Excellent, okay.

1265
00:56:28,990 --> 00:56:30,450
Thanks so much, Donna.

1266
00:56:30,450 --> 00:56:35,450
So I've got some notifications
on upcoming events

1267
00:56:36,784 --> 00:56:39,310
at Salem State, I'll just briefly mention.

1268
00:56:39,310 --> 00:56:42,232
So between April 11th and 22nd,

1269
00:56:42,232 --> 00:56:46,960
we climate mini golf
course on the library quad.

1270
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,580
Thursday, tomorrow, we have
the Friend of the Earth award,

1271
00:56:50,580 --> 00:56:53,660
which will be presented to HEET

1272
00:56:53,660 --> 00:56:57,390
and to Boston University
Professor Nathan Phillips.

1273
00:56:57,390 --> 00:56:59,380
And we also, on Friday,

1274
00:56:59,380 --> 00:57:02,450
have the role of museums
in the climate crisis

1275
00:57:02,450 --> 00:57:04,443
with the Peabody Essex
Museum curator Jane Winchel.

1276
00:57:07,551 --> 00:57:09,390
And then on Thursday, next week,

1277
00:57:09,390 --> 00:57:12,800
we have a session with Tara Gallagher

1278
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,940
on addressing climate change
on Salem State's campus,

1279
00:57:15,940 --> 00:57:18,380
and why it matters.

1280
00:57:18,380 --> 00:57:22,780
Okay, so if folks are interested
in other climate events,

1281
00:57:22,780 --> 00:57:25,520
we've got a lot going at Salem State.

1282
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:30,520
I would like to, again, thank
you Dharna for your time.

1283
00:57:30,610 --> 00:57:32,860
It was a really great conversation.

1284
00:57:32,860 --> 00:57:34,337
Thank you, Joey.

1285
00:57:34,337 --> 00:57:37,350
Hope everyone has a nice evening,

1286
00:57:37,350 --> 00:57:39,630
and we hope to see you all again soon.

1287
00:57:39,630 --> 00:57:41,250
Okay, that's it.
- So much for having me,

1288
00:57:41,250 --> 00:57:42,140
really appreciate it,

1289
00:57:42,140 --> 00:57:43,330
and thanks for all of your work Noel,

1290
00:57:43,330 --> 00:57:44,420
and thank you Joey as well.

1291
00:57:44,420 --> 00:57:45,280
- [Noel] Okay.

1292
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:46,210
All right, thank you.

1293
00:57:46,210 --> 00:57:47,210
Goodnight, everyone.